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Discuss Hairdressers in the Business Related area at ElectriciansForums.net

S

stirkytone

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Hi everyone,
I've just set up on my own and after acouple of weeks everything is going ok. I am due to start a refurb of a shop which will reopen as a hairdressers.. its nothing too complicated just sockets and lights and change the board. I am not registerd with anyone yet and its a commercial property do i have to notify anybody of the work i have carried out.
 
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ian.settle1

-
Mentor
Arms
Depends whether the is a flat above which is of the same meter as the shop. If it is on same meter then it is notifiable to LABC if not your OK.
 
M

mazdaman

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
You mean to say same incoming supply, not same meter. Shops usually have a different tariff than residential metering so will have a separate meter anyway. If a separate incoming supply the flat and shop have there own earthing arrangements and one will not effect the other which in this in this instance will not be notifiable to LABC.
 
You mean to say same incoming supply, not same meter. Shops usually have a different tariff than residential metering so will have a separate meter anyway.
sorry but my fathers salon doesn't, upstairs is on the same meter as down stairs, one bill
 

ian.settle1

-
Mentor
Arms
You mean to say same incoming supply, not same meter. Shops usually have a different tariff than residential metering so will have a separate meter anyway. If a separate incoming supply the flat and shop have there own earthing arrangements and one will not effect the other which in this in this instance will not be notifiable to LABC.
No, I mean one incoming supply with one meter.
 
M

mazdaman

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
It dosent matter how many meters you have, if one common incomming supply feeding shop and flat then LABC need to be informed.

Regards one meter for shop and flat, how do you split the usage out for expenses for your tax return? :eek:It won't be accurate. It would make more sense to have your business energy consumption seperate from the dwelling as you would have two seperate accounts.
 

ian.settle1

-
Mentor
Arms
It dosent matter how many meters you have, if one common incomming supply feeding shop and flat then LABC need to be informed.

Regards one meter for shop and flat, how do you split the usage out for expenses for your tax return? :eek:It won't be accurate. It would make more sense to have your business energy consumption seperate from the dwelling as you would have two seperate accounts.
Thats up to the owner of the shop/flat if they only want one meter for both:rolleyes:
 
S

stirkytone

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
Thanks for the replys, the shop and the flat above both have individual supplies. another thig i have come across though is the buildiing has one incoming water supply and is bonded back to the MET on the flats supply,will this cover the shop as well?
 
S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
It dosent matter how many meters you have, if one common incomming supply feeding shop and flat then LABC need to be informed.

Regards one meter for shop and flat, how do you split the usage out for expenses for your tax return? :eek:It won't be accurate. It would make more sense to have your business energy consumption seperate from the dwelling as you would have two seperate accounts.
where are you getting your information from fella?

you see, i'm a bluff old traditionalist and tend to follow the rules that are laid down

and the rules for this are laid down in Part P of the Building Regulations 2000

and the Approved Document to Part P specifically states if a business premises and a domestic dwelling share a common meter, then they both come under the auspices of Part P.

If they are on seperate meters, then the dwelling does, the business doesnt

Its got [email protected]$K all to do with tax returns or energy consumptions!!!!!:mad:

and if you dont know something, try looking up the answer instead of making it up as you go along, as you are clearly doing:mad:

Thanks for the replys, the shop and the flat above both have individual supplies. another thig i have come across though is the buildiing has one incoming water supply and is bonded back to the MET on the flats supply,will this cover the shop as well?
depends; does it follow all the BS7671 guidleines?

i.e. within 600mm of meter or point of entry to the building, before any junctions etc etc

do a resistance check with a long fly lead if you are not sure, from the water pipes in the hairdressers to the incoming supply.

Personally, I would consider that each dis board needs to bonded to the incoming water / and / or gas (or any other extraneous conductive parts) in their own right
 
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M

mazdaman

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
where are you getting your information from fella?

you see, i'm a bluff old traditionalist and tend to follow the rules that are laid down

and the rules for this are laid down in Part P of the Building Regulations 2000

and the Approved Document to Part P specifically states if a business premises and a domestic dwelling share a common meter, then they both come under the auspices of Part P.

If they are on seperate meters, then the dwelling does, the business doesnt

Its got [email protected]$K all to do with tax returns or energy consumptions!!!!!:mad:

and if you dont know something, try looking up the answer instead of making it up as you go along, as you are clearly doing:mad:



Well Shakey, Mr bluff old traditionalist get your facts right.

1. I am working to Part P building regs approved doc April 2006 not 2000 as your are!

2. The tax comment I made was a business observation not to do with Part P or the installation, you should read my comments more carefully.

3. Your comment is incorrect that if the dwelling and business are on separate meters then the business does not fall under part P. Incorrect. The meter is purely a measuring instrument and its fixture does not affect or split the two installations.

Part P Approved Document refers to ‘common supply’ NOT ‘common meter’ as you have commented incorrectly. The key word here is common supply not common meter. If there are two meters and two mains cut-outs for dwelling and business but are fed from same ‘common’ supply, ie same service cable then the business still falls under Part P. Why? Because the main earthing connection to the service cable is ‘common’ to both installations so therefore both installations come under Part P. You will not be able to do an earth loop test on the business without disconnecting the earth on the dwelling so will interfering with the dwelling installation so both come under Part P in this case. Only if the dwelling and the business are fed from separate incoming supplies, ie separate service cables including a looped service cable providing separate earthing, will the business not come under Part P.

Mr I am Part P registered have my own electrical contracting company. Previous 27 years with Electricity Board as engineer on power, both distribution and transmission, that’s 240V/415 as it was then to 132kV switching, and commissioning substation earth mats amongst other power related work. Four years spent on metering and tariffs domestic commercial and industrial. So your comments to me “where are you getting your information from fella? Think what you are typing and have the correct facts yourself first and not just ‘make them up’ as you have accused me of doing. My facts are from experience, Part P approved document (April 2006 page 6) not 2000 like you, BS7671 16th edition regulations, electricity supply regulations, electricity at work act, ECA. Need I go on.!! So Mr I have made nothing up but you may want to take an eye test as you are reading meter when it says supply. It makes a big difference.
 
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B

Bane

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhh!!!!

*Looks to Shakey*

"Come on Shakey! Don't let him bitch slap you like that!!!! He said your making it up! He called you Mr.Part P!!!"

*Falls on floor laughing*

"Oh I couldn't quite believe what I was reading there..."

*Re-reads the posts*

Or did you say he was making it up?

*confused*
 
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R

rumrunner

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
hi,
i did a rewire on a shop conversion a few years ago ,it was changed from a large shop into 2 flats and 2 shops ,
the supply was 3 phase and the electric board fitted seperate meters to each ,
they didnt do anything to the supply cable,which i found supprising as it didnt seem very big ,35mm at the most,the shops went on a phase sach and the 2 flats on the other,i think the electric board cheated so they didnt have to put a new supply in,
it was pme earth and i was told to fit a suitable earth block,where the main earth from an isolator had to be connected,i had to fit seperate isolators and then feed the consumer units in 25mm 3core swa ,some guy from the electric board came and told me what to do!
i just had to tell him what the approx load was going to be ,
i guess its not so simple these days
one thing i remember ,apart from each unit having different tenants,was that the shops were on a different tariff,to the flats
does this help?
 
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R

rumrunner

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
On That Particular Job ,all Four Sections Of The Project Had To Have SEPERATE Building Regs Approval ,i Remember There Was A Major Problem With The Drains
One Of The Flats Never Got Finished Because Of It.

The Flats And Shops Were Rated Differently For All Services and had different addresses,one shop was even in a different street(corner plot)

As Far As I Can Remember,one Flat And One Shop Got Sold To One Buyer And The Other Was On The Market As A Seperate Property
Im Sure That The Electric Board Cheated,but I Think The Same Happend Quite A Lot,
This Was About 6 Years Ago ,and Im Sure The Supply Cable Should Have Been Changed.
If It Had Of Been I Suppose All The Units Would Have Been On There Own Supply
Ah Well
 
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S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
where are you getting your information from fella?

you see, i'm a bluff old traditionalist and tend to follow the rules that are laid down

and the rules for this are laid down in Part P of the Building Regulations 2000

and the Approved Document to Part P specifically states if a business premises and a domestic dwelling share a common meter, then they both come under the auspices of Part P.

If they are on seperate meters, then the dwelling does, the business doesnt

Its got [email protected]$K all to do with tax returns or energy consumptions!!!!!:mad:

and if you dont know something, try looking up the answer instead of making it up as you go along, as you are clearly doing:mad:



Well Shakey, Mr bluff old traditionalist get your facts right.

1. I am working to Part P building regs approved doc April 2006 not 2000 as your are!

2. The tax comment I made was a business observation not to do with Part P or the installation, you should read my comments more carefully.

3. Your comment is incorrect that if the dwelling and business are on separate meters then the business does not fall under part P. Incorrect. The meter is purely a measuring instrument and its fixture does not affect or split the two installations.

Part P Approved Document refers to ‘common supply’ NOT ‘common meter’ as you have commented incorrectly. The key word here is common supply not common meter. If there are two meters and two mains cut-outs for dwelling and business but are fed from same ‘common’ supply, ie same service cable then the business still falls under Part P. Why? Because the main earthing connection to the service cable is ‘common’ to both installations so therefore both installations come under Part P. You will not be able to do an earth loop test on the business without disconnecting the earth on the dwelling so will interfering with the dwelling installation so both come under Part P in this case. Only if the dwelling and the business are fed from separate incoming supplies, ie separate service cables including a looped service cable providing separate earthing, will the business not come under Part P.

Mr I am Part P registered have my own electrical contracting company. Previous 27 years with Electricity Board as engineer on power, both distribution and transmission, that’s 240V/415 as it was then to 132kV switching, and commissioning substation earth mats amongst other power related work. Four years spent on metering and tariffs domestic commercial and industrial. So your comments to me “where are you getting your information from fella? Think what you are typing and have the correct facts yourself first and not just ‘make them up’ as you have accused me of doing. My facts are from experience, Part P approved document (April 2006 page 6) not 2000 like you, BS7671 16th edition regulations, electricity supply regulations, electricity at work act, ECA. Need I go on.!! So Mr I have made nothing up but you may want to take an eye test as you are reading meter when it says supply. It makes a big difference.
Ok Mazdaman,

sorry for the way i 'went at you', bad day and all that

I have no wish to fight, so lets keep this simple, and maybe we can all beneifit from it.

Firstly I have no idea what the 2000 version of the approved document looks like, seeing as it was origianally released in 2005! Additionally, what is the relevance of BS7671, ESQR's or EAWR's (I presume that's what you meant by 'electricity at work act)?

regardless of the requirement to comply with Part P, the installations should comply with BS7671 (and by default, the EAWR's), and as you well know, there is no mention of Part P in these documents.

And the ECA? As in the Electrical Contractors Association? That's like saying 'NICEIC' said so - and you know that neither have any authority.

Ok back to the point in question, I concede that the 2006 Approved Document DOES say 'common supply' not 'common meter'

However, it does not elaborate any further.

Hopefully you will have read the posts, and I can assure you, you are (in my experience) in an extremelly small minority with your point of view (as in a minority of one)

The posts from Access Training were particularly interesting, what is your view of the points made? I cannot see any way that your 'common service cable' view point would be able to work on a practical or legislative level

Now in the abscence of any further evidence on the subject, I would refer you to the 'Electricians Guide to the Building Regulations'

This is authored and published by the IEE (now the IET) who, as you know, author and publish BS7671

I would say that gives them a 'bit of clout';)

Anyway:

Page 15 para 1.3.2 Scope of Part P

"Part P applies to electrical installations in buildings or parts of buildings comprising:

(ii) dwellings and business premises that have a common METERED SUPPLY - for example shops and public houses with a flat above with a COMMON METER"

The following page Fig 1.3.2 there are anumber of diagrams which helpfully show that is the meter, not the 'service cable' that is the common factor

and in case there is any lingering doubt it states clearly below it


"Part P does NOT apply to:

(i) business premises in the same building as dwellings with SEPERATE METERING"




Ok, is there anything further to add?

Dont think so

Like I said, dont wanna fight, but if you have a better counter argument to your lone position, please, I would like to here it, we are all here to learn after all;)


Note to the Master, Bane

Am I 'un-bitch slapped' now:p
 
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