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I have been trying all last week to try to get two pumps to work together as well as work indepently of each othe Ill explain. I have a three channel time clock HW,CH1 and CH2 I have a oil fired burner and two pumps.When I call for CH1 or CH2 I want the two pumps to run when I call for hot water only I want one of the pumps to run and I have a fire with a back boiler that heats the water and that will bring in the other pump to run some one has told me that I have to use a relay I know very little about using relays could some one please help me out:confused:
 
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A

adamh

just been trying to think but it is late and there would be a way of doing it with the s/l from the valves without the need for a relay i think but i dont understand why you would need to? Could teh plumber not incorporate a seperate pump that could be fired up for the hot water?
 
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  • #3
I forgot to say there is no motorised valve on the hot water which is causing back feeds from the back burner stat
 
S

sparkygary88

just out of my time and the only thing i dont understand is heating,basic heating in general,has any1 a good way of explaining it simply?sorry to get off subject.
 

sparks1234

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Arms
Heating piece of cake, 2 systems generally used, a Y plan which is one valve that controls the hot water and heating or, S plan which is 2 or more valves which controls different zones, the S plan is IMO a better way of controling things and easier to expand on.
 
Only do you need both pumps to run when the CH is turned on? As stated by sparks the plumber needs to plumb the heating to either a S, Y plan. I have tried to wire something like this before it just turned out to be a big headache and the plumber was called back to put in the job right
 

andyb

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Arms
Esteemed
2 pumps require you to install a relay otherwise there is a common path via the boiler to both pumps, which means that any time that one pump is called upon to operate a signal will go from the boiler to the other pump.

Hope this helps.
 
G

Guest123

I think the situation would be made far easier by having a motorised valve installed onto the hot water feed.

A 3 pole relay is required to accept the 3 incoming call signals with a common output signal to each pump.


Having pondered on it some more it would appear that as you will have 2 input signals to one of the pumps, a further 2 pole realy may be required
 
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sparks1234

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Arms
Think you gonna need 4 relays, I have drawn it out and will go through it later and if it is ok will scan and post it
 
S

Sparky-Tom

Sorry about the size, I didnt realise it would be this big! I also assumed the voltage was 240VAC and that they would be single phase motors?

 
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S

Sparky-Tom

Could the signal from the back boiler not be put onto the coil of the relevant relay? Or am I missing the point?:confused:
 

sparks1234

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Arms
you need chan 1 and 2 to be seperated via relays or else the 2 zones will come on together

Think we need some better idea of what is actually required, is the back boiler the only boiler in the system?

This would be so simple if there were zone valves (2 port) installed
 
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andyb

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Arms
Esteemed
Do you want both pumps to run when ch1 or ch2 is calling or pump 1 when ch1 is calling and pump2 when ch2 is calling?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
PHP:
Thanks lads for all of that,Lenny is right there will be two signals going to the heating pump one from either of the heating CH,which will come on with the other pump as well and another signel that will bring on the pump on its ownwhen hot water is called for on its own the only time the other pump will be on is when the stat on the back burner calls for it to pump water away from the cycindier so kep on going lads we are making good progress:eek:
 

andyb

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Arms
Esteemed
I've made a drawing in word of what I think you need but I don't know how to up load it to the forum.

Can anyone advise me on this.

Basically you need a 3 pole relay, ch1 feeds the common of the 1st pole, n/o & n/c both go to pump 1.
ch2 feeds the common of the 2nd pole & the n/c feeds pump 2 & the boiler, n/o is not used. These 2 commons are linked.
A permenant live feeds the common of the 3rd pole and the n/o feeds the boiler & pump2, n/c is not used.
The coil is fed from the hot water demand.
This way if hot water only is called for pump2 & the boiler will be on but not pump1.

I hope this is clear but I can post a basic drawing if someone tells me how.
 

sparks1234

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Arms
Right lets get to the bottom of the requirements.

Channel 1 requires pump 1 and pump 2 and the back boiler to come on
Channel 2 requires pump 1 and pump 2 to and the back boiler to come on
Hot water requires pump 1 and the back boiler to come on

Is this correct and is there anything else involved
 
S

Spudnik

I've made a drawing in word of what I think you need but I don't know how to up load it to the forum.

Can anyone advise me on this.
Can you not save it as a jpeg and upload to somewhere like photobucket?
 

andyb

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Arms
Esteemed
Can you not save it as a jpeg and upload to somewhere like photobucket?
I've tried to save it in different formats but I only seem to get the option to save it as a word file.


If someone tells me what to do I'll have a go.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
andyb I think you have it nearly cracked but you are talking to someone who has never rally worked with relays before,from what you are saying I can get a relay from the wholesalers with three different sets of terminals each one will have its own set of common terminals so in fact a relay is just a two way switch that is switched with the coil am I right in saying that
I've made a drawing in word of what I think you need but I don't know how to up load it to the forum.

Can anyone advise me on this.

Basically you need a 3 pole relay, ch1 feeds the common of the 1st pole, n/o & n/c both go to pump 1.
ch2 feeds the common of the 2nd pole & the n/c feeds pump 2 & the boiler, n/o is not used. These 2 commons are linked.
A permenant live feeds the common of the 3rd pole and the n/o feeds the boiler & pump2, n/c is not used.
The coil is fed from the hot water demand.
This way if hot water only is called for pump2 & the boiler will be on but not pump1.

I hope this is clear but I can post a basic drawing if someone tells me how.
 

andyb

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Arms
Esteemed
That's right, you can get a 3 pole relay & base.
Each pole has a common, normally closed and a normally open contact.

The coil when energised switches all 3 contacts together.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
cheers mate I,ll bring all that info away and try it and I,ll let you know how I got on
That's right, you can get a 3 pole relay & base.
Each pole has a common, normally closed and a normally open contact.

The coil when energised switches all 3 contacts together.
 
S

sparkygary88

and is that wired by a direct feed to the time clock,then a stat wire from the main bedroom to the timeclock and then a 4 core to the boiler from the timeclock?off the subject here but my mates trip keeps going off,what would the problem be,fault?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24
the way I wired mine is a feed to time clock then I run a four core to a wiring centre in the hot press this is up to the motorised valves to tell the CH1,CH2 and hot water to come on and of course not forgettin the wire from the wiring centre to each roomstat and the stat on the cycinder
and is that wired by a direct feed to the time clock,then a stat wire from the main bedroom to the timeclock and then a 4 core to the boiler from the timeclock?off the subject here but my mates trip keeps going off,what would the problem be,fault?
 

andyb

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Arms
Esteemed
I've managed in power point then saved as jpeg as Jason sugested.

As you can see when ch1 or ch2 are demanding both pumps are on.
If HW demands only pump2 is on unless one of the heating channells are calling.

I hope this is clear
 

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #26
Your friends tripping fault could be anything is the trip going off all the time or just some times if it is going off all the time turn off all the mcb's and turn them off one at a time that will tell you what circuit it is on and then itis just a case of further investagation but if it is only going off some times it can be a bugger to find
the way I wired mine is a feed to time clock then I run a four core to a wiring centre in the hot press this is up to the motorised valves to tell the CH1,CH2 and hot water to come on and of course not forgettin the wire from the wiring centre to each roomstat and the stat on the cycinder
 
S

sparkygary88

thanks vbyrne, i checked the house with the rcd tripping and im pretty sure it was a faulty tumble dryer,i dont think appliances should be on the trip side off a board anyway,due to nuisance tripping..
 
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  • #28
thanks vbyrne, i checked the house with the rcd tripping and im pretty sure it was a faulty tumble dryer,i dont think appliances should be on the trip side off a board anyway,due to nuisance tripping..
you are totally right I have had my fair share of tripping faults I had this one if anybody could throw some light on it I had a 5 amp breaker feeding a lighting circuit and every time I switched the lights on it blew the trip what was doing it was I had a 230v downlighter in a plasterboard ceiling with a metal frame supporting the ceiling and where one of the lights were it was touching a piece of the metal frame and blowing the trip I moved the light away from the metal and everything was fine.I think the light must have been give out a small voltage and the metal strip must have been acting as an earth causing an imbalance:confused:anybody. By the way thanks for that drawing it was really helpful
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
On looking at my drawing you only need a 2 pole relay.
I've re-done it as attached.
Bit rushed but I think it's clear.
andy looking at your drawing again you havent put the stat on the back boiler Im just ponting this out just in case we get a back feed when the stat calls for pump #2 to come on so just to go through it again to have it clear in our heads two pumps on with ch1 and ch2 and the oil fired boiler pump #1 on with hw and the oil fired boiler pump #2to come on when the stat at the BACK boiler calls but that pump on only no back feeds to oil fired boiler or pump #1
 

andyb

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Arms
Esteemed
andy looking at your drawing again you havent put the stat on the back boiler Im just ponting this out just in case we get a back feed when the stat calls for pump #2 to come on so just to go through it again to have it clear in our heads two pumps on with ch1 and ch2 and the oil fired boiler pump #1 on with hw and the oil fired boiler pump #2to come on when the stat at the BACK boiler calls but that pump on only no back feeds to oil fired boiler or pump #1
Sorry vbryne, that has not cleared anything up.
Can you confirm that there is a total of 2 pumps on the system. Both to come on when ch1 or ch2 are demanding, but only one to come on when hot water only is demanding.

That is what I have drawn. For ease in understanding I have omitted other controls so that when my drawing says ch1 or hw this is the signnal from the zone valve after the programmer and any stats.

In my drawing pump 2 comes on with hw only, you can swap pump1 & pump2 if you want.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #32
Sorry vbryne, that has not cleared anything up.
Can you confirm that there is a total of 2 pumps on the system. Both to come on when ch1 or ch2 are demanding, but only one to come on when hot water only is demanding.

That is what I have drawn. For ease in understanding I have omitted other controls so that when my drawing says ch1 or hw this is the signnal from the zone valve after the programmer and any stats.

In my drawing pump 2 comes on with hw only, you can swap pump1 & pump2 if you want.
andy I tried this to day and every time the back burner called for the pump to come on it brought the oil pump on as well.It could be that I am doing the final connection wrong but it is all ways finding a path back to turn on the oil pump. Could you explain to me what is seperating these two pumps from coming on
 

andyb

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Arms
Esteemed
vbyrne

I thought both pumps were circulating pumps.
Can you do a basic drawing of your layout and post it so that I can see whats needed.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #34
vbyrne

I thought both pumps were circulating pumps.
Can you do a basic drawing of your layout and post it so that I can see whats needed.
would'nt know how to andy but if you tell me where to go and how you do it I ll give it a bash:)
 
S

silva.foxx

Is P1 an oil feed pump or a hot water circulating pump?

Are we saying that we have a back-boiler serving a heating system and an oil-fired boiler heating the hot-water?

Do we have a cylinder stat?

How many room stats?

Why do we have a CH1 and CH2 as they both appear to do the same?

How many motorised valves (MVs) do we have?

Is the cylinder twin coil indirect?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #37
Is P1 an oil feed pump or a hot water circulating pump?p1 is the pump that pumps the hot water from the oil fired burner

Are we saying that we have a back-boiler serving a heating system and an oil-fired boiler heating the hot-water?the oil fir

Do we have a cylinder stat?

How many room stats?

Why do we have a CH1 and CH2 as they both appear to do the same?

How many motorised valves (MVs) do we have?

Is the cylinder twin coil indirect?
Is P1 an oil feed pump or a hot water circulating pump?oil feed pump

Are we saying that we have a back-boiler serving a heating system and an oil-fired boiler heating the hot-water?no we just have two sources of heat heating the water for both the hot water and the central heating

Do we have a cylinder stat?yes

How many room stats?one upstairs ch2 and one downstairs ch1

Why do we have a CH1 and CH2 as they both appear to do the same?ch 1 downstairs heating ch 2 up-stairs heating

How many motorised valves (MVs) do we have?2 on the up and down stairs rads

Is the cylinder twin coil indirect?the way this system works is if the oil fired heating is on it fills the cyclinder with hot water then if ch 1 or ch2 is called for the water in the cyclinder is pumped straight to the rads and the boiler making hot water replaces the hot water in the cyclinder same if hw is called for on the cyclinder if the back boiler is lit which is a all fuel burner there is a stat on the return of that fire and when it calls it turns on pump 2 on to dump any access hot water out of the cyclinder

I hope silvafox I have answered all your questions I have so far over here had three different sparks looking at this and none of them could get it working properly it would be great if some one on the forum could solve this one:)
 
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J

joe kane

Plunber Should have used motorised valves,has he allowed for this in his cost.Dont make your life difficult wire for 2 2 port system.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #39
Plunber Should have used motorised valves,has he allowed for this in his cost.Dont make your life difficult wire for 2 2 port system.
he has used 2 2port valves one for the heating up-stairs and one for the down stairs rads he didn't put one on the hot water as usual but there is a high limit stat on in its place
 
J

joe kane

You need a hot water valve.A room stat upstairs and one downstairs.Do it this way its the easiest.Dont make your life difficult ,in the end it all boils down to cost.Hes trying to save money.
 
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