Help - First Job!

[chrisgc]

Hi all,

My brother called me today to ask if I would like to do some work for him at his house.

I have to meet him tomorrow but basically what he said he want is the following:

Existing switches to be relocated to a higher position as they are too low based on the regs (this was advice from his architect).

Anyway what I am after help with is the following:

1) What do I use to extend the existing wire (as there is not enough slack to use existing) as I will need to take out existing back box then join old cable to new cable and then re-plaster over where current location is and can't use junction box as it wont be accessable after plastering?

2) Is it ok to join old colour existing cable with new colour cable?

3) Can someone maybe also give me a list of things I will possibly need, ie. conduit, clips etc?

4) Best way to chase out wall without a wall chaser?

5) As I am not sure if I am making good and thus not sure if switch plates need putting on after I have installed cable - what is the best way to make sure that the new exposed cables are covered/terminated to prevent anyone touching the live wires?

6) Finally and most importantly - what tests do i carry out on the said circuit BEFORE I even make a start on the above? ie. To check for any potential faults which may need putting right beforehand?

Any help would be really appreciated.

Chris

 

[Mr.Si]

Hi Chris,

I'm only going to say one thing, the one related to your last question. Before you do ANY work, you must carry out Safe Isolation on the installation to make sure everything you're working on is DEAD.


I won't answer any other questions, as my Practical experience is Nil and I've only got my levels 2 & 3 C&G2330 qualifications. So I'll leave the rest of the answers to the experienced sparkies.

Si

 

[NEsparky]

Sorry mate i realy think you should leave well alone!


Are you even an electrician?

To be honest you cant make someone lift switches as they were not wrong when they were installed. Architect is just trying to justify his job.

Good luck

 

[Mr.Si]

It's a good point actually, if it was right when it was installed then it doesn't have to be changed unless it's become dangerous or damaged etc.

 

[chrisgc]

Sorry mate i realy think you should leave well alone!


Are you even an electrician?

To be honest you cant make someone lift switches as they were not wrong when they were installed. Architect is just trying to justify his job.

Good luck

Thanks for the concern.

But yes am a practising electrician - I am just lacking the practical side of things. End of the day very difficult finding someone who will take me on even as electricians mate as there is not enough work.

I have 17th Edition and completed Domestic Installers (but they tend to not do so much practical on the courses).

Was hoping for productive advice and not simply to leave alone.

Cant get the experience if not going to be able to actually do!

I am not taking on a complete re-wire. I am simply looking at moving switches/sockets higher (as in the IEE Electricians Guide page 137 - "A way of satisfying the requirement is to install swithces, socket-outlets and controls throughout the dwelling in accessible positions and at a height of between 450mm and 1200mm from the finished floor level).

Please note this is only in one bedroom.

I see this as a fine oppurtunity to learn some practical skills and not simply to just shy away from it.

So anyone with some productive advice to my original question would be appreciated.

Chris

Note: I know it could be left but if a customer wants something done and you can do it and get paid aint it in your best interest to do it - or has everyone got so much work on that they can say no to jobs???

 

[Des 56]

Here are some pointers
Before you alter the installation,you need to take account that the alterations must comply with the 17th edition
example
You may have lighting unprotected by an rcd and the burying of cables would require its inclusion

Do you have adequate earthing and bonding ?
This is required before any addition or alteration is carried out

If you have already made these assessments,then reply, so that advise can be given to your questions with this information being known

 

[JUD]

Thanks for the concern.

But yes am a practising electrician - I am just lacking the practical side of things. End of the day very difficult finding someone who will take me on even as electricians mate as there is not enough work.

I have 17th Edition and completed Domestic Installers (but they tend to not do so much practical on the courses).

Was hoping for productive advice and not simply to leave alone.

Cant get the experience if not going to be able to actually do!

I am not taking on a complete re-wire. I am simply looking at moving switches/sockets higher (as in the IEE Electricians Guide page 137 - "A way of satisfying the requirement is to install swithces, socket-outlets and controls throughout the dwelling in accessible positions and at a height of between 450mm and 1200mm from the finished floor level).

Please note this is only in one bedroom.

I see this as a fine oppurtunity to learn some practical skills and not simply to just shy away from it.

So anyone with some productive advice to my original question would be appreciated.

Chris

Note: I know it could be left but if a customer wants something done and you can do it and get paid aint it in your best interest to do it - or has everyone got so much work on that they can say no to jobs???

The height requirements of Part M of the building regs are for new builds only. There is absolutely no reason for them to be moved.

 

[chrisgc]

Here are some pointers
Before you alter the installation,you need to take account that the alterations must comply with the 17th edition
example
You may have lighting unprotected by an rcd and the burying of cables would require its inclusion

Do you have adequate earthing and bonding ?
This is required before any addition or alteration is carried out

If you have already made these assessments,then reply, so that advise can be given to your questions with this information being known

Will be checking that when I go to see specifically what he wants?

Presuming all is fine - can you please advise?

Chris

 

[NEsparky]

I'm affraid it is also part of you remit as an electrician to inform the client if the job is not required as per regs and the info from the architect is wrong.

Look I do not want to be rude in my eyes you cannot be classed as an electrician without practical experience as you are not compitent.

How do you plan to issue a test cert after you have completed the work?

 

[JUD]

There was a thread on this the other day. See wirepuller's post HERE.

Something to think about

 

[chrisgc]

I'm affraid it is also part of you remit as an electrician to inform the client if the job is not required as per regs and the info from the architect is wrong.

Look I do not want to be rude in my eyes you cannot be classed as an electrician without practical experience as you are not compitent.

How do you plan to issue a test cert after you have completed the work?

Dont worry not thinking your being rude.

Your contradicting what is being said.

Your right in a way BUT I can only get practical experience from doing it.

Not being rude either but this is drifting off the subject of my original post.

If you dont wish to help as per my thread then please dont comment (that sounds blunt but difficult to type it without sounding any other way).

The customer is MY BROTHER who is happy and willing to let me use his place to do a few jobs.

This site should not exist if practising electricians cant ask for info after all we are all learning everyday - never think you have learnt it all after all some of the advise asked by other members are from people who have been doing it years.

I would understand the concern more if I had already done the work then asked the questions.

I want to get things right first time and not second time.

Chris

 

[Spudnik]

Have to say fellas, but we are drifting off topic a little.

The man just wants a bit of advice.

If you feel that you can help then please do.

 

[cbw]

If its just 1 bedroom, carefully remove old plaster from below the socket, expose the existing cables and see if you can pull the extra couple of inches from under the floor, when I rewire I always leave a good few inches under the floor incase plasterer damages my cables.

Also as its just 1 bedroom I would consider rewiring that part of the ring rather than adding bits?

Also as stated, it is not needed under regulation, perhaps he needs a new outside light or consumer unit instead????

 

[Mark.W]

Hi Chris

If you need to extend cables then the best way is crimp and heat shrink them, this would then be classed as a permanent connection and therefore does not need to be accessable.

You may extend old colours with new colours.

The best way to chase a wall without a wall chaser is hammer and chisel I'm afraid.

You will need some oval conduit or some capping and some galvanized clout nails to keep conduit/capping in place.

I'd reinstall the sockets/switches irrespective of whether you're making good or not, the plasterer can always loosen the swithes/sockets a bit.

The tests before would be IR test, (join L/N together and test to earth) on the lighting circuit
On the sockets I'd test continuity of conductors and CPC, IR (again join L/N and test to earth, remember to make sure everything is unplugged)
I'd also test Ze and PFC

After the work is completed I'd do a Zs on the furthest point on the light circuit, I personally wouldn't do another IR as I did it before, but you can do another IR if you want.
On the sockets I'd test continuity of conductors and CPC, Zs on a couple of sockets.

PS I'm also based in Swindon and if you want me to come along for a bit of support, I'd be happy to. Sure I can spare a few hours on evening or possibly a Sat morning.

Cheers

 

[Des 56]

Hello Chris,just got back and had a read of the thread

Further to my post,by the way thanks for replying

The advise given by Mark W is good advise, comprehensive and with nothing much more that can be added,all I can say is

Well done on seeking out the experience of others,all trainees as you say, need the hands on experience

That experience is usually better acheived by learning first hand off others with a few years under their belt,but not always possible
Dont be put off by your inexperience,evrybody has to start somewhere

You have been given good advise and an offer that is very generous,think about using that chance,a mentor for your first project would be very whorthwhile

Other than that, crack on with the job and be assured that if you require advise during the job,you will be given assistance when needed

 

[alarm man]

Hi Chris


You may extend old colours with new colours.


Cheers

tho dont forget the caution sticker on the db saying it has 2 colour versions

 

[not clever]

Hi all,

My brother called me today to ask if I would like to do some work for him at his house.

I have to meet him tomorrow but basically what he said he want is the following:

Existing switches to be relocated to a higher position as they are too low based on the regs (this was advice from his architect).
Architect needs a SLAP. as said only required on new builds.

Anyway what I am after help with is the following:

1) What do I use to extend the existing wire (as there is not enough slack to use existing) as I will need to take out existing back box then join old cable to new cable and then re-plaster over where current location is and can't use junction box as it wont be accessable after plastering?
Use through crimps & a ratchet crimp tool, then over cover with heat shrink. Leave the back box in place & house crimps in it, just plaster straight over the crimps are classed as a perm connection.
Or
Lift floor below existing socket & joint cable under the floor.

2) Is it ok to join old colour existing cable with new colour cable?
Yes, just sleeve old colours with new colours.

3) Can someone maybe also give me a list of things I will possibly need, ie. conduit, clips etc?
Correctly sized cable/through crimps/cable clips/enclosure if jointing under the floor (chock box are good)/RCD/main equipotential bonds/minor works cert/test meter.

4) Best way to chase out wall without a wall chaser?
Scutch chisle & thumping stick

5) As I am not sure if I am making good and thus not sure if switch plates need putting on after I have installed cable - what is the best way to make sure that the new exposed cables are covered/terminated to prevent anyone touching the live wires?
You WONT be energising if accessories are not fitted. As for covering cables up the chases, no cover (capping) is required.

6) Finally and most importantly - what tests do i carry out on the said circuit BEFORE I even make a start on the above? ie. To check for any potential faults which may need putting right beforehand?
Testing needs doing post your work having being completed . r1 continuity , rn continuity , r2 continuity. R1+R2 test. Insulation resistance test. Zs test.
Surely this would have been taught to you on the over priced course you've attended & completed that makes you a COUGH COUGH electrician

Any help would be really appreciated.


Chris

All mine in red

 

[chrisgc]

All mine in red

NOT CLEVER,

On Number 5 you say no capping/conduit is needed.

I thought it woud be needed as it will be plastered over?

Is conduit not needed then?

Chris

 

[chrisgc]

cbw, Mark.W, Des 56, alarm man, not clever

Thank you for all the good advice

Chris

 

[Spudnik]

Conduit/capping is designed to protect the cable from the spreads trowel.

If you are doing it all then you dont need to use it.