Help me put right a bit of iffy electrics done by elderly relative.

[72-van]

Hi Guys
For the last few weeks i have been sorting out some iffy stuff at a relatives home .Some of which was exceptionally iffy.
Heres a description of the latest one i have found .
two storey semi with attic
upstairs ring main single socket has a spur taken from it (no fused unit for isolation) which feeds a double socket in a cupboard .
This double in turn has two plugs in it .
Both the plugs are wired with 1mm twin n earth lighting cable.
plug 1 feeds an external pir lamp at the front door of the property .
plug 2 feeds a series of flo fittings in the attic via an antique neon switch which accesory is broken not securely fixed.


I would welcome any pointers as to the best remedy.

My thoughts are fit a fcu at the single socket then wire the exterior light correctly to this .
find the upstairs lighting circuit and break into that with a 5amp terminal unit and feed the lights from there.


However is there a way to use the single feed from the ring suitablly fused for isolation to feed both the attic lights and the exterior light.


Many thanks

72-van

 

[trev]

I'd find the last light on the upstair circuit and extend from there for the attic light just to make testing easier and its a bit more logical than spidering off. Subject to the circuit load you could also extend for the outside light. Otherwise your method sounds ok.

 

[72-van]

Perhaps i should have said the exterior light is a Pir controlled fitting with a 100w bulb .

I did wonder about using the lighting circiut for that as well but might be more akward for a real spark testing this later with the electronics of the lamp to disconnect whilst testing.

 

[trev]

A real spark will know what to do mate

 

[Inteificio]

I would say burn the house down and start again, but it would be easier to leave it a few weeks and let it burn itself down.

 

[72-van]

I hasten to point out that I am Not a spark nor ever claim to be one unlike many that post here .

I would rather not be doing the relatives rectifications but he just wont pay to get it done proffesionally and he got a bad shock recently with his complete lack of understanding .My priority is to get the several things he has done back safely or disabled and removed.

I believe i am sufficiently competent in safe isolation and have sufficient theoretical knoledge to carry this out ..

hence my questions ..


cheers for your help guys

 

[trev]

When I made the last comment about a real spark that was not intended as a dig mate. I know on other posts you have told us about not being a spark, your honesty is appreciated and that's why you have got advice from a lot on here.

 

[72-van]

When I made the last comment about a real spark that was not intended as a dig mate. I know on other posts you have told us about not being a spark, your honesty is appreciated and that's why you have got advice from a lot on here.

cheers Trev ..
plain talking is the best way

 

[Inteificio]

look up cable calculation based on bs7671, there is one on android that'll cost you 75p. make sure the spur off the ring is fused to protect the on going cable. As long as all the wires are fused correctly you will be a lot safer. That means that in stead of wires melting you get fuses blowing. This is a simple way of testing if the circuits are rated fine for what they supply. Most appliances rarely if ever draw what they say on the side (heating being a BIG exception), so protect your wires.

Then if the fuses start popping you need to do more.

"not fused for isolation" a fuse will only break the live, that is switching. To isolate you need to break live AND neutral. Just as much 'trickery going through the N as L.

For this spur, what is the size of cable on the ring and what is the size of cable on the spur?

 

[72-van]

The upstairs ring is wired in 2.5mm twin n earth and the spur which has been taken off that ring is also in 2.5 mm twin n earth.

the spur wire runs under the floor and then up the wall to double socket i mention in the original posting .The cable is poorly clipped but secured after a fashion in the inside of the cupboard surface mounted.The Double socket is an old accessory surface mounted in a metal box.

I am fairly confident with cable selection csa etc i have my notes from the 17th and 2391 etc.

 

[Des 56]

Change double socket for a switched fused spur with 5 amp fuse to feed a 2 gang switch

 

[72-van]

Thanks des
I take it that you mean run the exterior light from this and take the attic lighting form the last point in the upstair lighting circuit then ?

cheers
72-van

 

[Inteificio]

You cannot take a 2.5 spur off a 2.5 ring. The 2.5 ring effectively has a cross section of ~5mm. The fuse protecting the ring will be rated to protect a 5mm circuit; therefore the 2.5mm spur is not protected by the fuse and may fail if there is a fault/overload.

This is a safety concern.

fuse that spur.


make sure the plugs are appropriately fused too.

 

[Inteificio]

just spotted something....you are 2391?!

yeesh thought I was giving advice to a DIYer, not an expert. Heh, guess my advice is a little bit basic for your skills ;-)

 

[BluSparx]

72-VAN where abouts are you as if you struggle due to your honesty about not being a spark I am sure that somebody on this forum would happily provide a quote to your elderly relative (Free of charge for quote) and explain why the testing should be carried out especially as he has had a shock.

 

[72-van]

Sat the 2391 never said i passed ...lol

resit planned soon

I had no intention of re-using the plugs to feed either of the "circuits " that exist at present and have every intention of making the whole thing as safe as possible

judging by the previous rectifications i have already made for my relative the flo light fittings will be badly wired and will need some serious attention coupled to the fact that i am pretty damm sure that nowhere in the regs does it allow twin n earth to go into a std 1361 plug

 

[72-van]

I am based in fife

my relative is very old (but still quite able) and will not spend to have this rectified .

I have spent hours trying to expalin polarity and continuity he cannot grasp these concepts ..

His agrument is that the lights work ,have done for twenty plus years .

He also thinks that Ac electricity is safe and cannot hurt you ..

it just throws you off...

can you understand that i cannot win here ..
The best i can do is get it safe for a ninety plus year old independant man

 

[trev]

You cannot take a 2.5 spur off a 2.5 ring.

Since when?

 

[72-van]

I thought you could take a spur to feed a radial circuit from a ring .provided that it had a means of isolation for the accessory and that no further spurs were taken from this one.

hence my original question.

As i have a spur from a ring effectively with two circuits coming from that spur .
one feeding an exterior light and another the attic lights .

Is there a legal way under the regs to use that spur to do both of the jobs .

 

[Richard Burns]

Your first method is the best method but requires more work. Des56 has said the easiest and still compliant method.

So long as the single socket that the spur is taken from is part of the ring then the 2.5mm cable up to the double socket is fine, but you need to fuse down from that point.
Remove the double socket, fix in a surface mount dual accessory box, use one side of the box to connect the spur supply to a double pole switched fused spur with a 3 amp or 5 amp fuse.
Take the lighting neutrals to the load side of the SFCU (obviously connect all the CPCs). Take the line load to the next half of the box to a two gang switch and individually switch the exterior light and the attic light.