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Discuss Hi from Ibiza all, Hope everything is good, Got a Neon safety question in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Blackswan555

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Hi all, My name is Tim,
I am a technical consultant living on Ibiza, Spain, If anyone can help out I have some safety issues with a neon installation by a sub-contractor, It`s been over 20 years since the closest I got to it was moving a transformer in a nightclub, So any up to date advice would be great
Thanks in advance
Tim
 
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Blackswan555

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Trying to post reply but keep getting Post denied. New posts are limited by number of URLs it may contain and checked if it doesn't contain forbidden words.


 
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Blackswan555

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Ha Ha Ha, Most would cringe at the work done here :) Not a URL or a nasty word in the whole post
Tim
 
It might be a post count thing Tim. There's been a lot of attempted spamming going on lately so the mods have battened down the hatches, try a PM to one of them asking for help
 
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Blackswan555

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Can`t find the "PM Mods" button so I just get to 6 posts :)
 
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Blackswan555

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Two fish in a Tank, The one turns to the other and asks " do you know how to drive this thing ?"

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Hi Thanks for replying, I have some pics but I have to get to 6 post`s before I can add them, So as good a verbal outline as poss :)

A bit of background, The offending items are artwork around an outdoor entertainment area, The contractor that installed them told me my fears were unfounded, I hope I am wrong but I am not confident with his words,
The site / area, Outdoor entertainment with pool within approx 10m, Tree in bar area with 3 fittings, further 4 fittings, 3 in tree @ base of a forest with serious fire risk. 4kv transformers

The "Birds in cages" neon tubed shaped into a bird, the cages are approx 300mm diameter, 500mm high, metal, Victorian`y fashion wire, Hung from trees by chain,

My concerns, The neon "tails" run parallel to the bars at a distance of about 15mm from both sides of the unearthed metal cage, The connections are made off by twisting the tube>hv cable then putting a boot over it which could easily come off, The fittings are at chest > head hight and very tempting to fingers, The fittings are outside, very good chance they will be on when it rains (afore mentioned "boots" will fill with water) Other fittings are in trees presenting fire hazard,

My "worst case scenario`s"
1, Finger through bar of cage, pop boot off ( or boot may have fallen off they are that lose) Cage is unearthed, That`s going to sting
2, Damp on boot which is touching metal cage, no earthing, Maybe arc ? Maybe just sting when you brush you shoulder on it ?
3, Arcing / fire hazard, How far will this stuff jump / track ?

The contractor told me my fears are unfounded as the earth leakage trip in the transformers will prevent all of the above, Your thoughts ?

Thanks in advance
Tim

ps what`s the max file size for pics ?
 
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Blackswan555

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IMAG0237.jpgIMAG0239.jpgIMAG0240.jpgIMAG0241.jpg

To Add, The contractors description of " the earth leakage in the transformer will save you" is undermined by the below I read in another document
"We need to say a word about the new secondary-circuit ground-fault transformers and power supplies that we all use today, hopefully. These products are designed with higher limits then the ground-fault around our pool or hot tub because they are designed to stop a fire when a fault occurs. They are not intended as personnel protection. "
Tim
 
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Hi Tim

Some good questions there mate, just looking at your pics isn't confidence inspiring, especially the one where you are standing on the ground with the cage at eye level.

At the very least I would want these to be a lot higher and out of reach.

Seems to me if the signs are being supplied via an earth fault transformer, then the cage and any other metal work enclosing the sign should be earthed, how else could it operate?

Anyway, you could have a read through this, it's the European standard for neon signs, should spell it out for you.

http://www.neonita.com/materials/standards/EN50107eng.htm
 
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Blackswan555

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Thanks a lot for that, I will have a good read :)
Yes most at head/chest height, agreed they should be out of touch zone, Even if people can not touch them (Which they WILL at that height) water in the end caps concerns me that it will track at that V ?

Tim
 

Marvo

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Neon signage is probably running at around 10kV so it should definitely be out of touch range especially around a pool area. The end caps where the wire terminates on the tube can be silicone sealed to prevent water ingress, the HT wiring should be secured and glanded. The cages should be earthed to ensure the transformer earth fault disconnect will operate and anything flammable should be removed from the cages and their close vicinity. As pointed out, the earth fault disconnect on the secondary side is a fire prevention method and will not protect people from HT shocks. Finally where I am it's a legal requirement that a firemans switch be fitted to the supply side of all neon signage transformers.

images.jpeg
 

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