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Discuss I'm officially 'At Risk' of redundancy. in the Commercial Electrical Advice area at ElectriciansForums.net

J

jibspark

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I received a letter today from my employer to tell me I'm officially at risk of redundancy and I'm going for a meeting next week to discuss my options..... :(

Things arnt looking good!
 
M

Moog

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  • #2
I received a letter today from my employer to tell me I'm officially at risk of redundancy and I'm going for a meeting next week to discuss my options..... :(

Things arnt looking good!
Real redundancy is where you have someone doing a job that the company will not need to do anymore. If the employer makes you redundant then employs some else to do your old job, you can ask for your old job back and dicker about pay lost in the interim. Depending upon how long you have been with the company these meetings are where you can ask for retraining grants, so if you want some free training to be able to get another job get some quotes and take them to the meeting with you if you dont want retraining then ask what criteria that are using to choose who is leaving and who is staying (get this in writing). If they make you redundant and they havent followed their own criteria you can improve your payout via court/ tribunal and or ask for you job back. Get a copy of the company employee manual if they dont follow their own rules then again the payout goes up and you can keep working for them until they sort it out. Usually once you have left they won't take you back but the payout will reflect this, normal payout is around 2 years wages if they have been naughty and it goes to court/ tribunal and you have been with the company 5years+. Also if this news makes you feel unwell you may have to go off sick with stress, they can't procede with the redundancy until you are well enough to deal with it, if they do they will really have to payout Bear in mind that if you do get a big payout you might never be employed in this field again, but then again you can always work for yourself.
 
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J

jibspark

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  • #3
wow cheers mate, ive been with the company 4 years. i will get some quotes on doing my 17th and my 2391 and present this to them.

they have loads of work but they have subcontracted it out and there for have nothing left for their own men, it doesnt seem right to me.
 
M

Moog

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  • #4
B**tards give em some stick, does your house insurance give you free legal advice? If it does then you can get definative advices from them for free and directline for example will take them to court for you. It doesnt sound right to me either it sounds like you need some professional legal advice, ask your company to pay for a solictor at the meeting if you can't get one for free
 
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R

rumrunner

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  • #5
wow cheers mate, ive been with the company 4 years. i will get some quotes on doing my 17th and my 2391 and present this to them.

they have loads of work but they have subcontracted it out and there for have nothing left for their own men, it doesnt seem right to me.
Hi
Sorry to hear your prediciment jib ,and moog seems to have good knowledge about what you can do .
the "trick" they are using is that they have allready started the sub contractors ,if they got rid of you say while you were in the middle of a job ,and then a subbie carried on with it ,that would be wrong ,if there on different jobs ,im not sure if it applies.
Also it depends in what capacity you are employed ,ie ,if you run jobs or just work on other peoples.
At the end of the day ,if there doing stuff like this ,i would be inclined to try and get another job lined up ,its a lot easier if you have been made redundant rather than pumped,
all the best anyway;)
 
W

wattsup

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  • #6
It is an old trick and 90% successful, some agency have contacted them...what does it cost you to employ a spark? err about £30 per hour all told...ok they say, we will send when needed @ £25 per hour, you have no worries, we will sort ni tax blah blah, no holiday payments to pay etc etc. You pay us once per month etc etc...

I'm not having a go at subbies, but that is the way all industry is going...'the new labour way' it sucks. But you cannot blame employers, with the crazy employment laws and very difficult to comprehend legislation. Who can blame them?

There are still some 'old fashioned' firms still going, but even the big ones are 50/50 on the books/subbies.

It is a con, I've done both but would always prefer on the books.

Just before I decided enough is enough, working subbie for some outfit doing tesco stuff...I turns up, have you got a 110v drill 'yes' have you got a 18v/24v drill 'yes' have you got a step ladder...err **** off, the next question will be have I got a cherry picker..get ****ed find someone else..and I would pay money to see the expression on the companies forman's face again.

The last job I worked on was a cancer hospital, x-ray dept. Concrete walls 3 feet thick in places, 6 inch lead lined doors, I have to get a micc cable within, to about 12 units..without making a noise..of course impossible. So they ask me to work out of hours (they don't give a **** about patients, as long as visitors can't hear or vip visitors) so anyhow ok I don't mind, 5am till 12 noon @ time and a half..no probs 5 days, no noise after 9am

I liked the shift it was ok, a doddle in fact more money more time off, no one wanted it on our company but 2 of us agreed to do it. I had been working their for a few months previous, so knew the building and stuff.

It took approx 2 months first fix. Guess what, when first fixed I was made redundant along with 6 or so others on the firm.

But it seems the subbies fetched in to do second fix did not understand my cable identification method -;) and the company invited me back for 2-weeks on double pay...get ****ed, you have already shown your hand, i'm busy with my own stuff now, and have not looked back since.

Loyalty goes a long way in my book
 
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If the employer makes you redundant then employs some else to do your old job, you can ask for your old job back
correct me if i'm wrong but the employer cant fill your space for a couple of years full stop, and if they do employ someone to fill your space then their breaking the law.

btw have you got a contract ?
 
W

wattsup

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  • #8
no they can't fill your space, but there are zillions of ways round it. Temp usually forefills the criteria, if not, if you were employed as an electrician, the next post would be electrical maintenance engineer, usually you would have to agree to do other 'none electrical jobs'..so it's not the same job...like i say there are litterally loads of ways round it. Sometimes they will upgrade the job title, electrical engineer for instance...
 
M

Moog

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  • #9
correct me if i'm wrong but the employer cant fill your space for a couple of years full stop, and if they do employ someone to fill your space then their breaking the law.

btw have you got a contract ?
Its a little wheeze they pull, get rid of your expensive qualified staff and replace with monkeys. They rename the job and add and drop some duties and they can get away scotfree. If the job is the fundamentally the same though you can go to the tribunal and argue it as unfair dismissal, redundance is just a class of fair dismissal after all. This is why the employeer has to be so careful to be seen to being super reasonable and fair, hence the free training and solictors advice. If they fail to follow their own rules or slip up in anyway it can become unfair dismissal and then they are in the lottery of court/tribunal, the legal costs alone are usually enough to make them give a fair deal out of court
 
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W

wattsup

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  • #10
If you are employed as an electician, then they cannot make you redundant and then advertise a job for an electrician for 2-years. They ain't daft, it is really a load of bull****, there are millions of ways round it. Like in the old days, as soon as you qualified you would be booted out (cos they had to pay you more money) so they would then seek new 'apprentices'. One spark, 20 apprentices

It is going the same way, except now rather than apprentices...use the agency, save 5 quid per hour and loads of hassle
 
W

wattsup

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  • #12
Moog, I don't think they replace with monkeys all the time, some subbies are ok and are just trying to make a living. It is not easy getting a job on the books comparitively with subbie work.
Many subbies are well versed in all sorts of stuff, the ones that are cowboys are usually sent home quickly.
 
M

Moog

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  • #13
Moog, I don't think they replace with monkeys all the time, some subbies are ok and are just trying to make a living. It is not easy getting a job on the books comparitively with subbie work.
Many subbies are well versed in all sorts of stuff, the ones that are cowboys are usually sent home quickly.
This wasnt whilst an electrician, it was IT and electronics, as I said get a big payout and don't get employed in same field again. I looked at TUPE earlier today but I dont think it applies
 
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B

Bane

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  • #14
I think we should create a new thread aimed directly at playing the system.

Found this thread VERY interesting.

Well done all who contributed! Especially you Moog
 
M

Moog

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  • #15
Thanks, I vote we take off and nuke the site from orbit, its the only way to be sure
 
R

rumrunner

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  • #16
Moog, I don't think they replace with monkeys all the time, some subbies are ok and are just trying to make a living. It is not easy getting a job on the books comparitively with subbie work.
Many subbies are well versed in all sorts of stuff, the ones that are cowboys are usually sent home quickly.
Hi
I agree most of the best sparks are subbies ,agencys arnt daft tho,yhey mix a couple of decent sparks in with a few less experianced ,i dont have a problem with that and can normally get another couple of pound out the agent to stay on the job, its lazy sparks i dont like,some are very good experianced tradesmen,but because there subbies they just dont give a ####,its an easy life being a subbie once your in with a few agengys ,it wouldnt suprise me if the guy getting redundancy has been targeted ,and the agent set up to poach the job ,thats the way it is now and has been for quite a long time
like i advised bane ,target an agent ,find a job you want to work on and ask him how much it will cost to get a start,simple:)
 
W

wattsup

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  • #17
rummrunner you are of course correct, many subbies don't give **** simply because they have no real ambition. You know, hey we will keep you in work for years...we have a job coming up in barbados, your'e just the guy we are looking for...blah blah ****... the good ones know it is bull****, hence the relaxed yeah man attitude, also the good ones can get a new start next week if need be. Some of the lazy ones are best. They are the tank driver as in 'kelly's heroes' Sure they will take for ages to do a job, but it will be done right. I would much rather have someone who knows what he is doing but slow, than a billy wizz who ****s up.

It is easy to tell real spark, you just know within 5 minutes, I can tell anyhow. It is dead easy. Unfortunately some company bosses cannot.

I get cold called many times, we can get you good experienced sparks for less than you pay your own men...err, I dont employ anyone, now **** off you parasite..-;)

Not entirely true, I give work away if I can't handle. In return I get work back when i'm short..it works ok.
No doubt soon the government will make this system illegal

I have also sold jobs. As a one man band it is hard to maintain a normal working week. For instance i have priced and started biggish jobs (by biggish I mean £20/50k) and in the meantime a more lucrative opportunity comes up, it is not easy to turn down, so I will sell the 20k job and just make a few hundred and move on to the new one. At first I thought a bit deceptive, but many huge firms do the same at a far greater profit. I suppose thats business, it is fraught with danger if the takeover company ****s up, i'm still where it is at. So you have to be extremely careful whom you give/sell work to. Of course I still have my bread and butter stuff, whom expect me every time, they are the ones to keep happy.
 
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R

rumrunner

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  • #18
As ive said on this forum a few times ,"it doesnt mater how long a job takes as long as its done right" by lazy sparks i ment ones who just dont care,
maybee ive just been on some sh*ty jobs ,sub contract to a well known company who do work for tescos for example,and a few others over the years
ive also worked with what i would consider the absolute best sparks in the game,most of which would agre that work is like sex ,keep up a good steady pace and every cu*ts satisfyed in the end
goodnight all
 
C

Chunky

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  • #19
Sorry but I have to put a word in for subbies.
I have worked as a subby now for about 10 years.Before that I was on the books.In my experience most(but not all)of the sparks on the books are the laziest bunch of *******s you can come across.Because they are safe in the knowledge their job is safe,they don't do a lot for their money.Indicative of their lazy ways is the fact that subbies are being called in in the first place.Most subbies(and again not all)have to work to guarantee their jobs and are usually a lot more productive.That is basically why big companies are now leaning towards using subbies.That is the unfortunate truth.
 
M

Moog

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  • #20
Just to remove any doubt I was not saying that in the electrical field that subcontractors were monkeys, I was refering to my experience in the IT field where in my working career it has gone from a science to support by monkeys. They still call them Computer Engineers but aside from knowing how to use and install MS products they are clueless and have no engineering skills nor techniques. The reason that IT is so full of monkeys is that there are no minimum entry qualifications to be able to work in the field, this is not the case with Electricians. With any job that requires skilled knowledge 90% of the time a monkey ( someone of minimal skill and experience ) will do. Unfortunately in IT industry the managers have decided that 90% success mean compete success. The remaining 10% is only ever dealt with if the client complains for long enough, then they get consultants in on short term contracts. In the IT industry not many people die each year because the wordprocessor wont start, in the Electrical field if we get it wrong then people can and do die. Personally, I prefer not to be staff as there is always someone waiting to take credit for my work. Further I would agree that with subbies the monkeys are quickly identified and weeded out, once the word gets out. All this means that I have the upmost respect for working subbies and it is just a shame that people who have put time in working as staff at a lower rate are being screwed over by quick buck management.
 
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S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
Real redundancy is where you have someone doing a job that the company will not need to do anymore. If the employer makes you redundant then employs some else to do your old job, you can ask for your old job back and dicker about pay lost in the interim. Depending upon how long you have been with the company these meetings are where you can ask for retraining grants, so if you want some free training to be able to get another job get some quotes and take them to the meeting with you if you dont want retraining then ask what criteria that are using to choose who is leaving and who is staying (get this in writing). If they make you redundant and they havent followed their own criteria you can improve your payout via court/ tribunal and or ask for you job back. Get a copy of the company employee manual if they dont follow their own rules then again the payout goes up and you can keep working for them until they sort it out. Usually once you have left they won't take you back but the payout will reflect this, normal payout is around 2 years wages if they have been naughty and it goes to court/ tribunal and you have been with the company 5years+. Also if this news makes you feel unwell you may have to go off sick with stress, they can't procede with the redundancy until you are well enough to deal with it, if they do they will really have to payout Bear in mind that if you do get a big payout you might never be employed in this field again, but then again you can always work for yourself.
Moog, dont quite agree with some of your comments - redundancy is easy for employers because there are few rules for selection. They MAY use 'last in-first out', they may use a points system based on attendance, sickness etc or they may just pick the guy with the biggest nose - its up to them. Miminum payout is between half and one and a half weeks pay for each year of service, depending on age, and subject to a minimum of 2 years. You also get accrued holidays, pay in leiu of notice etc.

Additionally with sickness, there is no barr to making someone redundant because they are sick. If there was, and someone esle was made redundant because the person was sick, then that would defintely be a tribunal case.

i agree that the employment laws cause the problem off 'on the books' versus 'subbies'. Its extremelyy difficult to get rid of someone who is not up to the job, and companies are very wary of taking on full time staff because of it.
 
M

Moog

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  • #22
Moog, dont quite agree with some of your comments - redundancy is easy for employers because there are few rules for selection. They MAY use 'last in-first out', they may use a points system based on attendance, sickness etc or they may just pick the guy with the biggest nose - its up to them. Miminum payout is between half and one and a half weeks pay for each year of service, depending on age, and subject to a minimum of 2 years. You also get accrued holidays, pay in leiu of notice etc.

Additionally with sickness, there is no barr to making someone redundant because they are sick. If there was, and someone esle was made redundant because the person was sick, then that would defintely be a tribunal case.

i agree that the employment laws cause the problem off 'on the books' versus 'subbies'. Its extremelyy difficult to get rid of someone who is not up to the job, and companies are very wary of taking on full time staff because of it.
The selection rules are the criteria I was on about, if the criteria is in any way unfair or biased then it goes against the employer. With regard to sickness they can indeed still disimiss you however you can present a case that you were dismissed because of the illness. This means again that HR departments are wary of going ahead whilst someone is sick, especially stress where their practices can be seen to have a detrimental effect upon the emploee's health. If they did and it was shown that they were responcible for compounding the sickness they could be found liable for lost wages until the employee is well enough to work again. None of the things I said will stop a employer if they really want to go ahead, however making things difficult can make the employer think again. The employer may decide that it wasn't such a quick fix after all and the legal complications may mean that a they reassess expecially where the idea is from a middle manager trying to get noticed. I have known lots of people who got stiffed by employers through ignorance, where if only they knew their rights they would have either still been working or have been compensated. So if you are staff and they are stiffing you it is always a good idea to see a legal expert, you may find that you still have some rights that protect you
 
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S

Shakey

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  • #23
The selection rules are the criteria I was on about, if the criteria is in any way unfair or biased then it goes against the employer. With regard to sickness they can indeed still disimiss you however you can present a case that you were dismissed because of the illness. This means again that HR departments are wary of going ahead whilst someone is sick, especially stress where their practices can be seen to have a detrimental effect upon the emploee's health. If they did and it was shown that they were responcible for compounding the sickness they could be found liable for lost wages until the employee is well enough to work again. None of the things I said will stop a employer if they really want to go ahead, however making things difficult can make the employer think again. The employer may decide that it wasn't such a quick fix after all and the legal complications may mean that a they reassess expecially where the idea is from a middle manager trying to get noticed. I have known lots of people who got stiffed by employers through ignorance, where if only they knew their rights they would have either still been working or have been compensated. So if you are staff and they are stiffing you it is always a good idea to see a legal expert, you may find that you still have some rights that protect you

all selection criteria is unfair and biased - it has to be! If there is more than one person doing a job, and only one is made redundant, then clearly that person is selected, so it is unfair on them, and fair on everyone else.

The point is the employer can pretty much decide any criteria they want to select the person - including sickness.

Pretty much the only time a tribunal would get involved with redundancy is if there was blatant dicrimination (ie selecting based on skin colour) but that would not mean, for example, that black people cannot be made redundant, only that they cant be selected purely on that basis.

I speak from both sides of the coin. My wife was made rendundant last month after 15 years, and that was purely a 'set up'. The company was n trouble, but the Welsh Assembly wont help an existing business. So they folded, made everyone redundant (450 people), and started up again a week later, attracting start up grants etc. I have also been involved as a manager, in both setting selection criteria, and selecting personnel for redundancy.

It isnt a nice thing either way, but the unfortunately businesses exist to make money, they are not charities (erm....unless you work for a charity of course!)
 
J

jibtech

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24
Sorry but I have to put a word in for subbies.
I have worked as a subby now for about 10 years.Before that I was on the books.In my experience most(but not all)of the sparks on the books are the laziest bunch of *******s you can come across.Because they are safe in the knowledge their job is safe,they don't do a lot for their money.Indicative of their lazy ways is the fact that subbies are being called in in the first place.Most subbies(and again not all)have to work to guarantee their jobs and are usually a lot more productive.That is basically why big companies are now leaning towards using subbies.That is the unfortunate truth.

exactly right firms men talk allllllll day long agency lads graft why? because if they get seen not grafting theyre gone but i have met some right agency muppets as well in my short time
 
W

wattsup

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  • #25
<<right agency muppets>> so have I, one I got with one once (i was with the same agency) The gaffer said, err you two can start the fire alarm circuit, all wired in mi, the guy I was with said is that pyro? the copper stuff with powder in the middle?, he said to me, do you know how to make the ends off?..if you do, I will wire it, if you make the ends off.

****inell I thought, I'm off, why me?

They got the 'agency' in because no one on the books knew how to make a pyro end off..and i'm not kidding. Bloody ell how do these people price/get work?
 

ian.settle1

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Mentor
Arms
I am a bit confused with some of the answers given here reason being is that if you work for an electrical contractor and their work dries up and they make you redundent after you have worked for them for 4 years does that mean when they get more business (say in 6 months time) they cannot employ any electricians for 2 years after making you redundent. i think not.
 
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D

dragon-av

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #27
TO the OP dont go overboard "your at risk" thats all, they have invited you to a meeting, to discuss the options, go in with an open mind. They may say anything, but if go in all guns blazing guess who will be going first. They might offer you a 4 day week while its quiet, a differnet role, or a payout. These arent always bad things and in the next 6 months far more people will get a letter saying your done goodbye cheques in the post. Your in a much situation than if they just went bust and legged it.
 
C

Chunky

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  • #28
Being a subby myself I have met some right chancers working as subbys.I tend to work for a certain amount of contrators but on occasion I have done agency work.Once I was paired up with a right nugget.We were installing 600mm tray and I started to notice he was standing back letting me do all the sets and measuring.OK I thought,no problem,I thought he was a little bit rusty but I asked him to paint the tray with galv after I had made one particular set.Off I went for a **** and when I returned the idiot had painted the whole length of tray,I kid you not.
So idiots are found on both sides of the fence.
 
S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #29
I am a bit confused with some of the answers given here reason being is that if you work for an electrical contractor and their work dries up and they make you redundent after you have worked for them for 4 years does that mean when they get more business (say in 6 months time) they cannot employ any electricians for 2 years after making you redundent. i think not.
bit more complicated than that Ian

depends if you have been made straightfoward redundant, depends on wether or not you have been 'bumped' (made redundant because someone elses job has gone and they have been moved into your job) or claimed statutory redundancy after being laid off for 4 weeks contionous for example. Bottom line is, of course there is nothing to stop them re-employing after 6 months if they won a new contract, although within certain time limits they would have to re-offer the job to the original redundee, who has 4 weeks to accept, but may lose part of their original payout etc etc etc.

Its a freekin' minefield. My missus came out ok. The company went into liquidation, so she she claims her redundancy from the National Insurance fund. She was out of work less than a week when the company was restarted after a management buy out, so she picks a cheque for about 8.5K and was straight back in her old job.

And like previously said, just changing a job title can be an 'easy' way around rendundancy for an employer. And its a fact that just making someone redundant can be a damn site cheaper for getting rid of unwanted or underpreforming staff than giving them the push and risking a tribunal.

My daughter is next - she works for an estate agents, - of course no-one if buying or selling, so the staff have to apply for their own jobs, and they know only half of them are going to be sucessful

Its tough out there, and its gonna get tougher
 
R

rumrunner

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
If you are employed as an electician, then they cannot make you redundant and then advertise a job for an electrician for 2-years. They ain't daft, it is really a load of bull****, there are millions of ways round it. Like in the old days, as soon as you qualified you would be booted out (cos they had to pay you more money) so they would then seek new 'apprentices'. One spark, 20 apprentices

It is going the same way, except now rather than apprentices...use the agency, save 5 quid per hour and loads of hassle
Anything goes really ,i remember a company that went bust owing thousands to the treasury in ni payments ,what hope would anyone working for them have of getting a proper pay out ?thats the reality unfortunatly ,if the goverment cant get what there owed because the directors leg it ,what chance do you have?

not all employers are crooks though ,some are very concientious and genuinely worry about paying men off
 
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