Inaccessible joint and assessment upcoming.

[NDG Elecs]

Hi Folks,

I have my assessment quite soon and have a query.
Situation is a RFC with no sockets on the ring but there are three sockets spurred off it at one point.
I have down rated the OPD to 20A due to this.

The RFC end to ends are spot on and the R1R2 is decent with the legs cross connected.

Trouble is I cannot locate the point where the ring is spurred from due to kitchen cabinets. Could be spurred from a JB, FCU or socket. Dont know.

The maximum demand on this circuit is approx 13A.

I could remove, terminate and tuck away one leg of the ring so it appears to be a radial but would prefer not to as it is basically hoodwinking the assessor.

The connections wherever they are, are surely tight with the test results I got. End to ends were 0.26/0.28/0.35 and tally up for the likely length of the RFC.

So what would others do in this situation is my query. After all there will be plenty of JBs hidden away up and down the country which are never rectified on a board change.

Any help/thoughts much appreciated.

Regards.

 

[markc123]

Hi Folks,

I have my assessment quite soon and have a query.
Situation is a RFC with no sockets on the ring but there are three sockets spurred off it at one point.
I have down rated the OPD to 20A due to this.

The RFC end to ends are spot on and the R1R2 is decent with the legs cross connected.

Trouble is I cannot locate the point where the ring is spurred from due to kitchen cabinets. Could be spurred from a JB, FCU or socket. Dont know.

The maximum demand on this circuit is approx 13A.

I could remove, terminate and tuck away one leg of the ring so it appears to be a radial but would prefer not to as it is basically hoodwinking the assessor.

The connections wherever they are, are surely tight with the test results I got. End to ends were 0.26/0.28/0.35 and tally up for the likely length of the RFC.

So what would others do in this situation is my query. After all there will be plenty of JBs hidden away up and down the country which are never rectified on a board change.

Any help/thoughts much appreciated.

Regards.

The bit i've highlighted in bold, no matter how many times i read it, i can't for the life of me understand what you're on about.

A RFC with no sockets but 3 sockets spurred off. Does this mean the ring is just FCU's then? Why have you downrated to 20A if the ring is complete and the results are okay?

As for the 3 spurs, how do you know they're all from the one point if you can't find where it is? Test at each individual socket, and you'll find which ones are the spurs because the readings will be significantly different.

Then, whatever is on this ring...FCU or sockets, open them up and one of them should have 3wires into L-N & E.

If it is a FCU and someone has spurred 3sockets off it in a botched radial, then it's a pi$$ easy fix - just switch the spur into the outgoing side of the FCU.

I've probably not helped at all - struggling here, long day, someone else may be able to decipher your OP better than me.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

The bit i've highlighted in bold, no matter how many times i read it, i can't for the life of me understand what you're on about.

A RFC with no sockets but 3 sockets spurred off. Does this mean the ring is just FCU's then? Why have you downrated to 20A if the ring is complete and the results are okay?

As for the 3 spurs, how do you know they're all from the one point if you can't find where it is? Test at each individual socket, and you'll find which ones are the spurs because the readings will be significantly different.

Then, whatever is on this ring...FCU or sockets, open them up and one of them should have 3wires into L-N & E.

If it is a FCU and someone has spurred 3sockets off it in a botched radial, then it's a pi$$ easy fix - just switch the spur into the outgoing side of the FCU.

I've probably not helped at all - struggling here, long day, someone else may be able to decipher your OP better than me.

Makes sense to me Mark.

 

[ab1978]

hi
so what you are saying is its a spur off a spur off a spur. if you can't find the feed off the ring then as you say 20amp mcb and make a note on EIC explaining reason etc and justifying what you've done

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Hi Folks,

I could remove, terminate and tuck away one leg of the ring so it appears to be a radial but would prefer not to as it is basically hoodwinking the assessor.




Regards.

Whatever you do, dont try to hoodwink the Assessor. Your assessor is not a pen pushing numpty, he will be a fully qualified Electrical engineer with years of industry experience, probably a lot more experience than you. He can and will catch you out if you try to pull a fast one, then he will hit your confidence so hard you will want the world to swallow you. We assessors are only assessing to a required standard, we are highly trained, and i have personally more than 30 years industry experience. I can sniff a rat a mile away. However treat your assessor properly and he will be more than willing to help and advise, that is the reason he is coming to see you. He will not be looking to find fault, and if he is, then he is in the wrong job.

Cheers...........Howard

 

[NDG Elecs]

Thanks for your reply.

Poorly explained I will try again!

Two legs at board, no sockets on the ring itself. There is basically a spur to a spur to a spur. The first spur has only one cable into it so this must be fed from the RFC.

I have had a look under floorboards and can see the two cables going towards the kitchen, but then there is wooden T&G panelling behind the kitchen cabs. So am reckoning the connection point to the first spur is somewhere behind this panelling.

So basically I have an inaccessible connection which is obviously a no no, despite the test results being lovely.

Assessment is end of next week so will have time to ease the base cabinet out and locate the bugler!

 

[Welchyboy1]

Thanks for your reply.

Poorly explained I will try again!

Two legs at board, no sockets on the ring itself. There is basically a spur to a spur to a spur. The first spur has only one cable into it so this must be fed from the RFC.

I have had a look under floorboards and can see the two cables going towards the kitchen, but then there is wooden T&G panelling behind the kitchen cabs. So am reckoning the connection point to the first spur is somewhere behind this panelling.

So basically I have an inaccessible connection which is obviously a no no, despite the test results being lovely.

Assessment is end of next week so will have time to ease the base cabinet out and locate the bugler!

i think your making a mountain out of a molehill, i take it you didn't install this ring circuit, but you have changed the cu or something similar?

You have downrated the ring circuit accordingly, just make a note on the cert

as long as its safe mate youll be fine, you have identified the problem and dealt with it, this is what a half decent assessor would be looking for, not a perfect job on someone elses work that you had nothing to do with nor control over

you cant be expected to pull a house apart correcting other peoples bad installs (unless there is a real safety issue that is)

if that was the case i would struggle to find a cu change i would show anyone

 

[NDG Elecs]

Thanks for replies so far. Much appreciated.

I am more concerned about having inaccessible connections which I am aware are there. I have fitted a new db and all new earth and bonding conductors for the assessment.
Right off to play five a side but will have a look later when back in.

Thanks

 

[Octopus]

Thanks for replies so far. Much appreciated.

I am more concerned about having inaccessible connections which I am aware are there. I have fitted a new db and all new earth and bonding conductors for the assessment.
Right off to play five a side but will have a look later when back in.

Thanks

Sounds to me if DIY bodger or kitchen fitter bodger have been at it. This is VERY common.

As far as your cert goes, a note is appropriate to highlight the issue and the fact you can't track down the connections. Then don't loose any sleep.

 

[somersetsparks]

Thanks for replies so far. Much appreciated.

I am more concerned about having inaccessible connections which I am aware are there. I have fitted a new db and all new earth and bonding conductors for the assessment.
Right off to play five a side but will have a look later when back in.

Thanks

If you can't see the inaccessible connections then you can't say that they are not maintenance free. A properly done JB is fine anyways, the only ones that fail are DIYed ones IMO. You're readings are fine meaning the connections are healthy. far too much worrying goes on about junction boxes IMO. A lot of places I test are wired spider method and after 50 years in service - still fine.

 

[NDG Elecs]

Cheers for other replies.

I was not 100% as to whether they could/would pick up on this and fail me thats all.

I will prob try and track it down still as it is in my own house, and I don't mind investigating further.

Thanks again for everyone's input on this forum that is truly the king of kings!

 

[somersetsparks]

ahhh.... you're own gaff, that pits a different spin on it. I would re-wire the lot then! (says the man still harbouring a Bakelite rewireable board)

 

[sparkdog]

You could always use a cable tracer to find where it goes possibly.