Inspecting and Certifying Fire Alarm System

[Grangewood]

Good Morning .. I’m after some advice please. I have a contract with a company for Various Electrical Systems. The Company has an Old Style Automated Fire Alarm System installed around 2000 which I have examined, the System itself is in good order but fails by Current Standards. I did advise and quote for a simple Upgrade or an Actual New System to bring the Buisness up to the current standard. They have stated that due to the current situation they have insufficient funding to do either.
They have however asked me to Carry out the 6 monthly Testing of the System as the previous Alarm Company no longer seems to be trading. I have conducted the Testing which shows the System is working but I have concerns over the Standards of the Installation and Actual Coverage in the event of a Fire.
Should I simply insist the Alarm is Upgraded or Replaced and refuse to Certify the System or am I Being over the top, the System was checked regularly twice a year with current Regulations in place. My view is they simply took the money for a simple check.
i have checked through the Current Regulations but cannot find a definitive solution.
Thanks in advance
John

 

[westward10]

How does it fail by current standards. What Category of system is currently installed.

 

[Grangewood]

How does it fail by current standards. What Category of system is currently installed.

Hi, I Have assessed the system requirements at P3 .. it does have a minimal amount of staff but has various offices on the 1st Floor, there is one Fire Detector on the Upstairs Landing and One in a Common Room on the Ground floor, Neither sufficently cover Fire Escape Routes.. according to current Regs this is a failure or so I understand .. maybe I’ve misread them
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Hi, I Have assessed the system requirements at P3 .. it does have a minimal amount of staff but has various offices on the 1st Floor, there is one Fire Detector on the Upstairs Landing and One in a Common Room on the Ground floor, Neither sufficently cover Fire Escape Routes.. according to current Regs this is a failure or so I understand .. maybe I’ve misread them

Sorry P2

 

[westward10]

I doubt it is a P2 system that is for property protection. A large percentage of fire alarm systems are not designed to any Category they are just put in as the installer feels is correct. All you can do is service the system and recommend any upgrades/additions you feel are necessary, you are not failing it as such just noting the current inadequacy of the system.

 

[UNG]

What does the fire risk assessment for the building say

Let me guess they haven't got one

 

[Grangewood]

I doubt it is a P2 system that is for property protection. A large percentage of fire alarm systems are not designed to any Category they are just put in as the installer feels is correct. All you can do is service the system and recommend any upgrades/additions you feel are necessary, you are not failing it as such just noting the current inadequacy of the system.

The current System is way below current standards, I assessed it at P2 as it’s capable of having large groups for meetings etc and as such would be a risk in the event of a Fire. The problem I have is whether to simply Confirm the current alarm works in which case I am concorned I would then be classed as adopting the system in which case I wouldn’t be happy to Certify. having read the current Regulations I think the failures have to be highlighted and as such should be upgraded. I don’t want to Certify something which in the event of a Fire would potentially be a hazard due to insufficient alarm capabilities

 

[westward10]

P2 is property protection but either way all you can do is put recommendations on the Certificate.

 

[Grangewood]

What does the fire risk assessment for the building say

Let me guess they haven't got one

No they didn’t have one in place, I conducted the Fire Risk Assessment with their Designated Safety Officer, and went through the current system failures. It was clear That the previous Installer was not qualified sufficiently and has simply been testing the alarm and Detectors before simply signing I off
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No they didn’t have one in place, I conducted the Fire Risk Assessment with their Designated Safety Officer, and went through the current system failures. It was clear That the previous Installer was not qualified sufficiently and has simply been testing the alarm and Detectors before simply signing I off

If I simply put recommendations on the Certificate does that allow me to certify a System I know to be insufficient, I understand that if I modify anything then the system becomes my responsibility to maintain at current standards

 

[Phil L]

Hi

can I ask what experience/qualifications you have in relation to Fire Alarm systems? Are you accredited with BAFE/NSI for this work? Conducting FRA’s is more than a walk around with there designated fire officer (otherwise probably known as fire Marshall/handyman), if a FRA was completed was a category of system not concluded as part of this?

 

[Grangewood]

Hi

can I ask what experience/qualifications you have in relation to Fire Alarm systems? Are you accredited with BAFE/NSI for this work? Conducting FRA’s is more than a walk around with there designated fire officer (otherwise probably known as fire Marshall/handyman), if a FRA was completed was a category of system not concluded as part of this?

Hi Phil, Firstly No I am not accredited with BAFE.. I am however qualified, I conducted the Risk Assessment and the Category I assessed this at was P2. The building is mainly used for Staff but has regular meetings with Children etc

 

[westward10]

I do FRAs and generally note if the system is inadequate, this does not go to the extent of putting a Category to it as you are not likely to know what it is.

 

[Phil L]

Hi grangewood,

having stated that your assessment was P2 was that a FRA or a fire alarm survey, I ask as P2 is associated with Property yet you mention staff and children in site which would usually point to A L Catergory, P system usually indicate the the building is the main priority yet you keep mentioning people as your main concern that this system is unsuitable, what other provisions are there in regards the safe evacuation/notification, what high risk areas were observed?

 

[davesparks]

, I assessed it at P2 as it’s capable of having large groups for meetings etc and as such would be a risk in the event of a Fire.

I know very little about fire alarms, but I thought the P categories were for buildings where protection of property was the main concern, maybe a normally unmanned warehouse or similar?
But you are talking about this as though protection of people is the main concern, isn't this usually an L category for protection of Life?

 

[Grangewood]

Hi grangewood,

having stated that your assessment was P2 was that a FRA or a fire alarm survey, I ask as P2 is associated with Property yet you mention staff and children in site which would usually point to A L Catergory, P system usually indicate the the building is the main priority yet you keep mentioning people as your main concern that this system is unsuitable, what other provisions are there in regards the safe evacuation/notification, what high risk areas were observed?

Hi Phil, firstly my apologies, I have actually catorgorised the System as an L3 .. the existing System is P3 at Best ..

hence my concern over the Escape Routes and Children, the Upstairs of the building is still a High Risk as it stores masses of documents, there is one exit from the first floor which is not protected by any other system, it has one Detector on a small Landing and very little lighting and 1 Fire Extinguisher upstairs. In the event of a Fire people would become trapped very quickly and There is no alternate escape route available.
the building is generally empty during the night, they have no living accommodation and staff levels are around 6 other than volunteers. I have Checked the building and highlighted potential Flash points with Kitchen Areas and Canteen areas together with small storag areas currently housing small Tents etc for the children. I spent time looking through the building and believe the Assessment to be fair. I have looked at BAFE accreditation but at this time have not progressed anything.
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I know very little about fire alarms, but I thought the P categories were for buildings where protection of property was the main concern, maybe a normally unmanned warehouse or similar?
But you are talking about this as though protection of people is the main concern, isn't this usually an L category for protection of Life?

Hi Dave .. Yes you are correct, this was my error.

 

[Phil L]

Hi Grangewood,

So I think I understand now where you are coming from, you have completed an FRA and will be producing a report with any issues identified , one of which will be the fire alarm, although you will highlight your concerns and as a FRA assessor you can recommend a system catergory there is no real way of enforcing it,

Although regs may of changed since the install, when servicing and maintaining the regs are not retrospectively applied all you can do is make a note of any deviations/variations from the current standards on your certificate and hope at some point in the future the client will act on these

Much like any form of certificate as long as you are completing all of the necessary checks on all of the equipment in line with MI instructions and BS5839 you will be ok, just make sure you note any form of defects or recommendations and code them accordingly