Inspection of wiring to new industrial dish washer

[Les Macaulay]

Inspected a final circuit for a new dishwasher of the commercial type, rated at 4.3 kW, about 50M from the D/B. Final connection joint to the appliance flex comprises connector block in a dry wall box with lid lying on floor of commercial kitchen. C1, C2 or C3? Isolating switch on opposite wall 2M away un-labelled.
C2 or C3?
No paperwork left with client. Can client ask for this? No idea the cost of installation. Cable is 4 sq mm looped from a 2.8kW wall mounted water boiler on wall opposite where isolating switch has been sited. Cable to new dish washer run along corner of wall/floor behind three deep sink cast iron legs without containment. C2 or C3?
Comments please.

 

[westward10]

What is it you are doing for the client.

 

[Les Macaulay]

What is it you are doing for the client.

Advising only based on my experience as a retired inspector qualified to 17 edition only but even the 15th edition comes to bear on this except for the C grading. No?

 

[westward10]

What is the client asking of you as it isn't very clear.

 

[Les Macaulay]

What is the client asking of you as it isn't very clear.

ok. Here is the full picture. I am a member of the church that this job was done in, and regularly test and inspect the systems including Fire Alarm, Intruder Alarm and Electricity at Work. No official status other than an active member.

 

[westward10]

Still no idea what it is you are being asked of.

 

[Les Macaulay]

Still no idea what it is you are being asked of.

My opinion is that it was done by a cowboy not and electrician and I want another independent opinion. I would get the installer back and confront him about his quality of work.

 

[westward10]

If you want an independent opinion you would have to employ a competent person to carry out an inspection and report.

 

[Les Macaulay]

If you want an independent opinion you would have to employ a competent person to carry out an inspection and report.

Thanks for your advice. I expected you to simply agree that this is incompetent for an electrician to leave a job which clearly breaches of the big blue book in several ways. Would you accept this?

 

[westward10]

I agree it sounds like a poor installation but I would need to physically see it, some pics would be good.

 

[Pete999]

Thanks for your advice. I expected you to simply agree that this is incompetent for an electrician to leave a job which clearly breaches of the big blue book in several ways. Would you accept this?

Very difficult to comment on work of this nature, on the say so of someone who has actually seen the installation, as said you need the services of a competent Electrician to carry out an EICR.
Doesn't sound like the work is up to standard, like I said an EICR is the way forward.

 

[Les Macaulay]

I agree it sounds like a poor installation but I would need to physically see it, some pics would be good.

Thanks again but due to lock down, pictures are out. If I had asked, "is it acceptable to use a drywall box with the yellow lugs, unfixed lying on floor of a kitchen as a joint box for final connection to a dish washer?" Would you have answered without pictures?

 

[Vortigern]

Clearly from what you describe the installation is sub standard to dangerous. I think you should get someone to inspect and if necessary rectify anything dangerous as soon as possible. If I understand you correctly there is exposed live parts and this is a danger have no doubt about it. On that basis even with lock down we are able to attend as electricians where something needs to be made safe. Rather than trying to manoeuvre the conversation to a desired outcome I should go back to the people you report to and recommend what has been said to you, an inspection is needed.

 

[Pete999]

Thanks again but due to lock down, pictures are out. If I had asked, "is it acceptable to use a drywall box with the yellow lugs, unfixed lying on floor of a kitchen as a joint box for final connection to a dish washer?" Would you have answered without pictures?

As a retired Electrician, obviously with I and T Quals, are you trying to justify what you have told someone, it should be obvious to that all is not well with this installation, and an EICR is the way forward, get the report done, add your findings and pass the documents on to the Church Authorities, or the person / persons authorising the EICR, as said earlier agreeing with your findings will be difficult without eyes on.
Why wasn't an EIC issued on completion of the work in the first place? Sounds like a DIY Dave has been used for the work to cut costs. Of course there is no proof of this, just an educated observation, for goodnees sake get the EICR done ASAP.

 

[pc1966]

As already covered above, what you describe appears to be inadequate/potentially dangerous but nobody can say more without seeing it (or photos at the very least).

If it is going to come to a legally worded letter demanding it is fixed, you wil need to have the written opinion of someone recognised as a "competent person" and that normally means a currently registered professional electrician.

If you still want more guidance to form your own opinion to direct the church authorities towards paying for that sort of written report (or approaching the original installer informally) then you would do worse than look up the best practice guides, in particular #4 on coding faults during an inspection:

Best Practice Guides | Electrical Safety First

Electrical Safety First produces, in association with other industry bodies, a range of Best Practice Guides which provide definitive information and guidance on a range of technical subjects.

www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk

 

[Les Macaulay]

Clearly from what you describe the installation is sub standard to dangerous. I think you should get someone to inspect and if necessary rectify anything dangerous as soon as possible. If I understand you correctly there is exposed live parts and this is a danger have no doubt about it. On that basis even with lock down we are able to attend as electricians where something needs to be made safe. Rather than trying to manoeuvre the conversation to a desired outcome I should go back to the people you report to and recommend what has been said to you, an inspection is needed.

I will do, thank you.
Stay safe

As a retired Electrician, obviously with I and T Quals, are you trying to justify what you have told someone, it should be obvious to that all is not well with this installation, and an EICR is the way forward, get the report done, add your findings and pass the documents on to the Church Authorities, or the person / persons authorising the EICR, as said earlier agreeing with your findings will be difficult without eyes on.
Why wasn't an EIC issued on completion of the work in the first place? Sounds like a DIY Dave has been used for the work to cut costs. Of course there is no proof of this, just an educated observation, for goodnees sake get the EICR done ASAP.

good advice. I will do as you say.
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As already covered above, what you describe appears to be inadequate/potentially dangerous but nobody can say more without seeing it (or photos at the very least).

If it is going to come to a legally worded letter demanding it is fixed, you wil need to have the written opinion of someone recognised as a "competent person" and that normally means a currently registered professional electrician.

If you still want more guidance to form your own opinion to direct the church authorities towards paying for that sort of written report (or approaching the original installer informally) then you would do worse than look up the best practice guides, in particular #4 on coding faults during an inspection:

Best Practice Guides | Electrical Safety First

Electrical Safety First produces, in association with other industry bodies, a range of Best Practice Guides which provide definitive information and guidance on a range of technical subjects.

www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk

Thank you

 

[davesparks]

Advising only based on my experience as a retired inspector qualified to 17 edition only but even the 15th edition comes to bear on this except for the C grading. No?

The 15th edition does not come to bear on this because it has been replaced many times over.

When the regulations are changed they aren't just issued as additions to previous editions, they completely replace them.
Whilst some parts remain largely the same, other parts of the regulations change sometimes completely removing previous requirements
[automerge]1590407512[/automerge]

comprises connector block in a dry wall box with lid lying on floor of commercial kitchen. C1, C2 or C3?
Isolating switch on opposite wall 2M away un-labelled.
C2 or C3?
No paperwork left with client. Can client ask for this? No idea the cost of installation. Cable is 4 sq mm looped from a 2.8kW wall mounted water boiler on wall opposite where isolating switch has been sited. Cable to new dish washer run along corner of wall/floor behind three deep sink cast iron legs without containment. C2 or C3?
Comments please.

Joint box on the floor is likely to be C3.

The 2m distance to an isolator was removed from the regulations a while ago, it being unlabelled is your only problem there which would be C3 at worst I think.

It depends on the type of cable used, but any insulated and sheathed cable generally does not require containment.

 

[Les Macaulay]

The 15th edition does not come to bear on this because it has been replaced many times over.

When the regulations are changed they aren't just issued as additions to previous editions, they completely replace them.
Whilst some parts remain largely the same, other parts of the regulations change sometimes completely removing previous requirements
[automerge]1590407512[/automerge]


Joint box on the floor is likely to be C3.

The 2m distance to an isolator was removed from the regulations a while ago, it being unlabelled is your only problem there which would be C3 at worst I think.

It depends on the type of cable used, but any insulated and sheathed cable generally does not require containment.

I got all that. Thanks for your thoughts.