Discuss Is there a table of expected R1+R2 results in BS7671? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

HappyHippyDad

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Evening...

I always use my OSG to find R1+R2 when needed for designing a circuit (staying withing the Zs limits), but I wondered if the same table is somewhere in BS7671? Its table I1 in the OSG. I've hunted high and low so I expect it's just something that the OSG offers and isn't in BS7671, but I thought I'd ask :smiley2:.
 
R1+R2 is the resistance of line and earth together, so unless the book knows the length of every circuit and quality of every termination, its not going to give you what you want, I guess you are looking for max figures are you?
 
Evening...

I always use my OSG to find R1+R2 when needed for designing a circuit (staying withing the Zs limits), but I wondered if the same table is somewhere in BS7671? Its table I1 in the OSG. I've hunted high and low so I expect it's just something that the OSG offers and isn't in BS7671, but I thought I'd ask :smiley2:.

If you notice, the OSG has a reference in blue next to all passages and tables that directly reference BS7671. Where there isn't one, it's an OSG only table.
 
I have this if its any use?

e432b9e278d09c539438896dbd0daa01.jpg
 
R1+R2 is the resistance of line and earth together, so unless the book knows the length of every circuit and quality of every termination, its not going to give you what you want, I guess you are looking for max figures are you?

No, he's looking for the stated R1+R2 per metre for the various cables. It's the information we all use to calculate Zs for a circuit when calculating cable sizes
 
If you notice, the OSG has a reference in blue next to all passages and tables that directly reference BS7671. Where there isn't one, it's an OSG only table.

I could see that Andy so I thought it was a real long shot, just a bit bored at work so I thought I'd pop the thread up just in case I was missing something and it actually was in there! I've been wondering for a while if it was lurking somewhere inside BS7671.

Cheers anyway chaps :smile5:
 
The information is in BS 7671, it's just there in an oblique form.

It is in the voltage drop tables, in appendix 4. For example, 4D1B column 2 (singles) and 4D5 column 8 (T&E): same figures for voltage from (e.g. 1mm = 44mV/A/m, 1.5 = 29, 2.5= 18 etc).

This is voltage drop in mV/A/m.

From Ohm's Law: R = V/I... so you could write voltage drop as mΩ/m if you wanted. mΩ/m is also "resistance per metre"

The VD figures in BS 7671 are (like maximum Zs values) calculated at full operating temperature. From the "NOTE" in section 6.1 of appendix 4, it mentions an approximate resistance-temperature coefficient of 0.004 per degree C at 20C... this is explained under table B2 in GN3, "The correction factor is given by: {1 + 0.004 (ambient temp - 20C)}" Although here it's talking about ambient temperature, rather than operating temperature, you can see it's the same principle.

Thermoplastic is good upto 70C. 70-20 = 50C. 0.004x50 = 0.2. So the correction factor is 1.2.

If you apply the factor of 1.2 to table I1 in the OSG or B1 in GN3, you will get the voltage drop numbers in BS 7671. Or, if you wanted to go the other way, then divide the VD numbers in BS 7671 by 1.2... not forgetting of course that the VD numbers assume you have two conductors (L and N) of the same CSA.

Example. Say you wanted to know the expected measured (at 20C) R1+R2 of 2.5+1.5mm T&E, and you only had BS 7671 on you.

VD for 2.5mm = 18mV/A/m = 18mΩ/m, which includes the resistance of both L and N, so a single cable of the same length contributes half this.
VD for 1.5mm = 29mV/A/m = 29mΩ/m, which includes the resistance of both L and N, so a single cable of the same length contributes half this.

(18+29)/2 = 23.5 mΩ/m

Apply the 1.2 correction factor: 23.5 / 1.2 = 19.58mΩ/m.
Answer from the OSG: 19.51mΩ/m.

Ta da! :)
 
The information is in BS 7671, it's just there in an oblique form.

It is in the voltage drop tables, in appendix 4. For example, 4D1B column 2 (singles) and 4D5 column 8 (T&E): same figures for voltage from (e.g. 1mm = 44mV/A/m, 1.5 = 29, 2.5= 18 etc).

This is voltage drop in mV/A/m.

From Ohm's Law: R = V/I... so you could write voltage drop as mΩ/m if you wanted. mΩ/m is also "resistance per metre"

The VD figures in BS 7671 are (like maximum Zs values) calculated at full operating temperature. From the "NOTE" in section 6.1 of appendix 4, it mentions an approximate resistance-temperature coefficient of 0.004 per degree C at 20C... this is explained under table B2 in GN3, "The correction factor is given by: {1 + 0.004 (ambient temp - 20C)}" Although here it's talking about ambient temperature, rather than operating temperature, you can see it's the same principle.

Thermoplastic is good upto 70C. 70-20 = 50C. 0.004x50 = 0.2. So the correction factor is 1.2.

If you apply the factor of 1.2 to table I1 in the OSG or B1 in GN3, you will get the voltage drop numbers in BS 7671. Or, if you wanted to go the other way, then divide the VD numbers in BS 7671 by 1.2... not forgetting of course that the VD numbers assume you have two conductors (L and N) of the same CSA.

Example. Say you wanted to know the expected measured (at 20C) R1+R2 of 2.5+1.5mm T&E, and you only had BS 7671 on you.

VD for 2.5mm = 18mV/A/m = 18mΩ/m, which includes the resistance of both L and N, so a single cable of the same length contributes half this.
VD for 1.5mm = 29mV/A/m = 29mΩ/m, which includes the resistance of both L and N, so a single cable of the same length contributes half this.

(18+29)/2 = 23.5 mΩ/m

Apply the 1.2 correction factor: 23.5 / 1.2 = 19.58mΩ/m.
Answer from the OSG: 19.51mΩ/m.

Ta da! :)

Quite frankly Steve I've disgusted that you could be so flippant when it comes to safety. An additional 0.07mΩ/m could mean DEATH! Think again, and this time take a bit longer rather than your half hearted attempt!!
 
? the nominal hasnt dropped we just need to take 5% off to allow for external influences (i dont have a regs book within 100miles of me)

I know that, I never said it has changed. Knocking 5% off the nominal voltage as newtothis has done in his formula for calculating maximum permitted Zs works as it takes in to account the Cmin factor.
 

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