Is this installation considered acceptable today? (1-ring including oven and everything else)

[Iain Kay]

Looking for some advice on what I've discovered is the electrics situation in my rental property.

I'll note that before I moved in here I made the Letting agents (LA) more than aware I use an absolute -----ton of power. I told them I can and will be pulling 2,000-4,000 kWh a quarter (with gas hob and heating). No concerns raised.

When I moved in here it looked promising. CU had no spare slots, plenty of MCBs and RCD protection in place. Nice one I thought, 4x 32A MCBs, good chance we've got a couple of rings and kitchen will be on its own. As it turns out, nope.

I haven't removed the cover, so I have not been able to confirm what connections we have inside the CU but I can confirm my findings in terms of what the resulting circuits are.

1) 16A - Does nothing
2) 16A - Radial to water heater switch, on to a switch in the living room that's got a single GU10 lamp installed in a unit coming from it. (Water heater removed some time ago)
3) 6A - Smoke alarms [Issue: One not receiving mains power but clearly wired into the trunking containing this circuit so should be]
4) 6A - Lights (Kitchen, Bathroom, Master Bedroom)
5) 6A - Lights (Lounge, Hallway, Second bedroom)

So far so good, this looks great, other than the oddity of feeding the GU10 lamp from the previously installed radial, but makes sense as this terminates inside the bottom of the unit containing the GU10 so just laziness prevails.

6) 32A - Does nothing
7) 32A - Does nothing
8) 32A - ALL sockets (Lounge, hallway, kitchen, oven, boiler, master bedroom, second bedroom)
9) 32A - Shower
10) 40A - Does nothing

Not so good. We have a single 32A ring covering everything including the bloody oven, washing machine, tumble dryer and the rest of the gaff on top!

Why the hell install all of those 32A MCBs to do sweet F all?

I've confirmed this is definitely the case by killing off the circuits in almost every possible order and I can see that nothing else is getting a complete circuit to these circuits enabling power to flow.


Now for the big question.

I did some maths here and it looks like this is seriously overloaded pretty much any time we're using the kitchen pretty heavily (most nights...).

A typical evening in the house consists of washing and drying lasting 3-4 hours, concurrently (4.6kW total), whilst over the course of this the oven will be put on (7.8kW total) and often a hair dryer (8.8kW total) and kettle (11.8kW total) too. Admittedly the last two are far shorter use, but this is seriously over the rating for this circuit and I don't feel it's over the top usage of a house.

Let's add up purely the kitchen during a typical wash and prepare meal:
2,550W - 3,000W - Kettle
900W - Toaster
80W - Fridge
125W - Boiler
2,200W - Washing Machine
2,400W - Tumble dryer
3,200W - Oven

Not all of this will be on all the time but lets assume this is peak before taking into account any of the rest of the property.

11,455W or 11.45kW best case, 11.8kW worst case. Now my 32A circuit should not be over 7.2kWh and probably not over 5.76kW for extended periods.

Then we get to two HDR tellys on pretty much all the time, set top boxes, server, multiple PCs with multiple monitors connected, PoE Switches and networking gear, smart home gear and when I am using it I often have a lab set up with multiple PCs which is where we get to the 4kW/quarter.

Right now, I'm concerned that before we even cover the devices used throughout the house, the kitchen alone (well counting the hall cupboard with tumble dryer) is pulling 159% - 164% of the rated load on this circuit.


I know that the best practise for a single ring can be based upon property size, not certain of the specs here though.

I'm unsure of the sq footage of the entire property but I'd say it isn't particularly small. We're looking at 165 sq feet in the master bedroom alone.

Should I be raising this with the LA and pushing to get this sorted out so that at very least the oven is moved to its own radial circuit and preferably get the rest of the kitchen moved over to its own ring too?

Would you suggest it's worth myself looking at spurring off this 16A radial to get an extra couple of sockets, capable of at least 13A, running in the living room that won't be on this single ring?

The 32A to the shower is currently running into the hall cupboard where there is an isolator switch. The sockets in there are on the main ring and contain my comms cabinet and the tumble dryer. The comms cabinet won't use a huge amount, although does have quite a few devices and PoE switch providing power to WiFi, VoIP phones and some smart home devices. Is there anything I could do to take power off this? Either going with a fused spur or a Garage CU that then splits into the shower and extra sockets? (I know this will require notification and a competent installer doing it).


Any thoughts from the pros would be greatly appreciated here as I'm not sure if it would be considered enough of a problem to have a LA take action, however, way I see it I'm constantly stressing this system beyond what it was intended for with no idea how the wiring quality in the walls is, so it's a concern, whether or not the LA will do anything or not I'm not sure and I don't want to raise it without getting some professional opinions.

 

[mhar]

MCBs are what we know as over current protective devices. Have any of your ocpds ever tripped indicating that your demand is too much for the circuit?

 

[SparkyChick]

To answer one of your questions... why fit a board and not use all of it...

Very often, the cheapest way to buy a new board is as a populated assembly. So it's not that uncommon to have a fully populated larger board with only a few circuits when the consumer unit is replaced. We also have to install excess capacity, so some spares is normal.

It's also important to remember that we are allowed to use 'Diversity' when specifying cable and protective device sizes. The washing machine for example will not be drawing it's full rated power all the time. During a typical wash cycle there is quite a lot of time when it's drawing nowhere near it's maximum. The same is true for the oven, where it will be drawing a high current when the heaters on on. Once it's up to temperature it will begin cycling with the heaters only turned on periodically to maintain the desired temperature.

 

[Octopus]

How old is the property ?

How old is the electrical installation?

 

[Pete999]

Looking for some advice on what I've discovered is the electrics situation in my rental property.

I'll note that before I moved in here I made the Letting agents (LA) more than aware I use an absolute ****-ton of power. I told them I can and will be pulling 2,000-4,000 kWh a quarter (with gas hob and heating). No concerns raised.

When I moved in here it looked promising. CU had no spare slots, plenty of MCBs and RCD protection in place. Nice one I thought, 4x 32A MCBs, good chance we've got a couple of rings and kitchen will be on its own. As it turns out, nope.

I haven't removed the cover, so I have not been able to confirm what connections we have inside the CU but I can confirm my findings in terms of what the resulting circuits are.

1) 16A - Does nothing
2) 16A - Radial to water heater switch, on to a switch in the living room that's got a single GU10 lamp installed in a unit coming from it. (Water heater removed some time ago)
3) 6A - Smoke alarms [Issue: One not receiving mains power but clearly wired into the trunking containing this circuit so should be]
4) 6A - Lights (Kitchen, Bathroom, Master Bedroom)
5) 6A - Lights (Lounge, Hallway, Second bedroom)

So far so good, this looks great, other than the oddity of feeding the GU10 lamp from the previously installed radial, but makes sense as this terminates inside the bottom of the unit containing the GU10 so just laziness prevails.

6) 32A - Does nothing
7) 32A - Does nothing
8) 32A - ALL sockets (Lounge, hallway, kitchen, oven, boiler, master bedroom, second bedroom)
9) 32A - Shower
10) 40A - Does nothing

Not so good. We have a single 32A ring covering everything including the bloody oven, washing machine, tumble dryer and the rest of the gaff on top!

Why the hell install all of those 32A MCBs to do sweet F all?

I've confirmed this is definitely the case by killing off the circuits in almost every possible order and I can see that nothing else is getting a complete circuit to these circuits enabling power to flow.


Now for the big question.

I did some maths here and it looks like this is seriously overloaded pretty much any time we're using the kitchen pretty heavily (most nights...).

A typical evening in the house consists of washing and drying lasting 3-4 hours, concurrently (4.6kW total), whilst over the course of this the oven will be put on (7.8kW total) and often a hair dryer (8.8kW total) and kettle (11.8kW total) too. Admittedly the last two are far shorter use, but this is seriously over the rating for this circuit and I don't feel it's over the top usage of a house.

Let's add up purely the kitchen during a typical wash and prepare meal:
2,550W - 3,000W - Kettle
900W - Toaster
80W - Fridge
125W - Boiler
2,200W - Washing Machine
2,400W - Tumble dryer
3,200W - Oven

Not all of this will be on all the time but lets assume this is peak before taking into account any of the rest of the property.

11,455W or 11.45kW best case, 11.8kW worst case. Now my 32A circuit should not be over 7.2kWh and probably not over 5.76kW for extended periods.

Then we get to two HDR tellys on pretty much all the time, set top boxes, server, multiple PCs with multiple monitors connected, PoE Switches and networking gear, smart home gear and when I am using it I often have a lab set up with multiple PCs which is where we get to the 4kW/quarter.

Right now, I'm concerned that before we even cover the devices used throughout the house, the kitchen alone (well counting the hall cupboard with tumble dryer) is pulling 159% - 164% of the rated load on this circuit.


I know that the best practise for a single ring can be based upon property size, not certain of the specs here though.

I'm unsure of the sq footage of the entire property but I'd say it isn't particularly small. We're looking at 165 sq feet in the master bedroom alone.

Should I be raising this with the LA and pushing to get this sorted out so that at very least the oven is moved to its own radial circuit and preferably get the rest of the kitchen moved over to its own ring too?

Would you suggest it's worth myself looking at spurring off this 16A radial to get an extra couple of sockets, capable of at least 13A, running in the living room that won't be on this single ring?

The 32A to the shower is currently running into the hall cupboard where there is an isolator switch. The sockets in there are on the main ring and contain my comms cabinet and the tumble dryer. The comms cabinet won't use a huge amount, although does have quite a few devices and PoE switch providing power to WiFi, VoIP phones and some smart home devices. Is there anything I could do to take power off this? Either going with a fused spur or a Garage CU that then splits into the shower and extra sockets? (I know this will require notification and a competent installer doing it).


Any thoughts from the pros would be greatly appreciated here as I'm not sure if it would be considered enough of a problem to have a LA take action, however, way I see it I'm constantly stressing this system beyond what it was intended for with no idea how the wiring quality in the walls is, so it's a concern, whether or not the LA will do anything or not I'm not sure and I don't want to raise it without getting some professional opinions.

Did you get any electrical certificates from the letting agency, when you took over the house?

 

[Pete999]

Did you get any electrical certificates from the letting agency, when you took over the house?

I know, but had to ask.

 

[Octopus]

I'm a bit dubious about these kinds of threads ..... The op has chosen to conceal all their details ..... What are they hiding,?

 

[Jim_e_Jib]

I'm a bit dubious about these kinds of threads ..... The op has chosen to conceal all their details ..... What are they hiding,?

That their lab running multiple PCs is actually at GCHQ...

 

[Pete999]

I'm a bit dubious about these kinds of threads ..... The op has chosen to conceal all their details ..... What are they hiding,?

Murdoch, he is probably not a Sparks, but a DIYer, who doesn't want to get roasted on here, could be wrong mind you, but????? I agree why do people hide their details?

 

[littlespark]

OP, you can't alter any of the installation. All you can do is inform the LA that the circuit keeps tripping. (even if they don't!)
The LA and landlord have to send round an electrician, but all you'll get is "You have overloaded the circuit"
However, a good electrician will have equipment to measure the current drawn at and should advise their client that the installation is unsatisfactory and needs upgraded.

As #4, how old is the property? It sounds like the CU has been changed without any rewiring taking place. So maybe a 4 way fuseboard removed and replaced with whatever the "spark" had in his shed. (I say spark in the loosest term. Mate down the pub sounds more likely)

OP, without taking anything apart, can you see what colours the cables are? (simplest way would be to power off, unscrew a ceiling rose cover, quick look and put it back)
If its red and black, installation is pre 2007. Brown and blue, after 2005.

 

[Octopus]

Murdoch, he is probably not a Sparks, but a DIYer, who doesn't want to get roasted on here, could be wrong mind you, but????? I agree why do people hide their details?

Hum ............... its very often somebody who deliberately wants to hide something ...........

The average DIYer doesn't have the knowledge this person appears to have ....................

I just wanted to look at their other posts .................

Without any assessment of competence and / or knowledge its tricky to offer any guidance.

So its a tenant, probably looking to get something from their landlord for nothing.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I am being forced to grow only 5 cannabis plants due to the Letting agents (LA) only installing one ring. How is this fair? My profit is getting decimated all because the LA have left spare ways in my consumer unit. I was very clear with the LA I would be growing many more than 5 plants but they just couldn't care less. Not happy with this at all

 

[The Ghost]

2,550W - 3,000W - Kettle
900W - Toaster
80W - Fridge
125W - Boiler
2,200W - Washing Machine
2,400W - Tumble dryer
3,200W - Oven

So...up in the morning on with the kettle and some toast to be sure. In with the washing and on with the tumble dryer and in with the turkey while having a shower.
Kettle 3 mins.
Toaster 3 mins.
Washing machine, does it feed from the boiler? i.e. one cold feed or hot and cold feed?
Tumble dryer-No clothes line? anyway is there a prodigious amount of washing clothes to do? Get economy tariff and wash on a timer stagger the loads between night and day.
Oven, cut down on the roasts? perhaps roast the Turkey after the washathon?
Anyway I don't think any landlord or LA will respond or re-wire the property due to your unusual energy usage patterns. And at that I imagine in reality nothing will happen with all due respect, you are reacting to a paper tiger you made constructed from figures that you have not tempered in contrast with reality.

 

[Deleted account]

OP, you can't alter any of the installation. All you can do is inform the LA that the circuit keeps tripping. (even if they don't!).

Litlespark I cannot condone lying. This is going to cost the landlord money to send an electrician out to look for a fault that doesn't exist. It's unfair on landlord when the installation may be perfectly acceptable in regards to electrical safety.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - my advice too is - use and enjoy your new home. In my humble opinion the shower must be separate, and it is. The rest is really up to loading. If it causes you trouble with MCB tripping or you see/smell smoke then obviously something's not right.

 

[davesparks]

Let's add up purely the kitchen during a typical wash and prepare meal:
2,550W - 3,000W - Kettle
900W - Toaster
80W - Fridge
125W - Boiler
2,200W - Washing Machine
2,400W - Tumble dryer
3,200W - Oven

Not all of this will be on all the time but lets assume this is peak before taking into account any of the rest of the property.

11,455W or 11.45kW best case, 11.8kW worst case. Now my 32A circuit should not be over 7.2kWh and probably not over 5.76kW for extended periods.

Then we get to two HDR tellys on pretty much all the time, set top boxes, server, multiple PCs with multiple monitors connected, PoE Switches and networking gear, smart home gear and when I am using it I often have a lab set up with multiple PCs which is where we get to the 4kW/quarter.

Should I be raising this with the LA and pushing to get this sorted out so that at very least the oven is moved to its own radial circuit and preferably get the rest of the kitchen moved over to its own ring too?

Would you suggest it's worth myself looking at spurring off this 16A radial to get an extra couple of sockets, capable of at least 13A, running in the living room that won't be on this single ring?

The 32A to the shower is currently running into the hall cupboard where there is an isolator switch. The sockets in there are on the main ring and contain my comms cabinet and the tumble dryer. The comms cabinet won't use a huge amount, although does have quite a few devices and PoE switch providing power to WiFi, VoIP phones and some smart home devices.

Any thoughts from the pros would be greatly appreciated here as I'm not sure if it would be considered enough of a problem to have a LA take action, however, way I see it I'm constantly stressing this system beyond what it was intended for with no idea how the wiring quality in the walls is,

The obvious answer here is to not start you washing, drying, oven and kettle all at the same time, stagger the starting of these and diversity will come in to effect.
If you are switching everything on simultaneously then I would say it seems you are deliberately trying to force an issue.
What type of oven is it? I don’t think I’ve seen one yet where all elements can be switched on simultaneously, most at least have a separate grill element which cannot be ok at the same time as the oven element.

I don’t see any particular issue to raise with your Lettings agent, your landlord is not obliged to provide an electrical installation to suit your personal requirements, they only have to ensure that the installation is safe.

Where do your figures of 7.2kW and 5.76kW for a ring circuit come from? By my calculation 32A 7.68kW

Is all of this IT equipment purely for home (non-business) use? If any of it is for business use then you may not want to involve the LA as such use of the property is normally not allowed in a residential letting.

I would strongly advise against making any alteration to the installation yourself, or having any alteration made without written permission from your landlord.
Having done work for lettings agents in the past I have occasionally removed such alterations at the tenants expense.


If you are ‘stressing the system’ as you put it then it is likely that you are the one at fault here as your tenancy contract will require you to take all reasonable steps to prevent damage to the property.

 

[Iain Kay]

Thanks for all the posts everybody.

I'll try to get through answering all of them.

I'm a bit dubious about these kinds of threads ..... The op has chosen to conceal all their details ..... What are they hiding,?

First of all to cover who I am, I'm not a certified spark, so I have no qualification details to note. I have posted a welcome thread where I detail my level of experience a bit, though.

I'm 30 years old. I'm not certified but I've worked with power all my life, I've taught myself a little theory and I've run circuits alongside sparks because I've always been so interested about how we get from making power to the home to the device.

So, right now I'm somewhere between a DIYer and a trainee. Once I feel I have most of the theory down self taught I'm going to try and go for my level 2 cert and go from there.

Have a few family friends that are sparks, so I'm sure I can get some more hands on experience alongside qual'd pros too.

 

[Iain Kay]

QUOTE="mhar, post: 1434891, member: 96119"]MCBs are what we know as over current protective devices. Have any of your ocpds ever tripped indicating that your demand is too much for the circuit?[/QUOTE]

My MCBs are not tripping regularly, a few times since moving in, presumably because they're Type B so they'll take 3-5 times the current to trip?

I cannot, however, turn them the ring off and back on. Sparks and flips straight off.

I have to power down PC equipment and fire each device up individually. Right bloody pain and worrying.

 

[Iain Kay]

I am being forced to grow only 5 cannabis plants due to the Letting agents (LA) only installing one ring. How is this fair? My profit is getting decimated all because the LA have left spare ways in my consumer unit. I was very clear with the LA I would be growing many more than 5 plants but they just couldn't care less. Not happy with this at all

LOL. Perhaps at a silly little age 18 year old me, but not with my 10 YO daughter living here with me.

 

[Iain Kay]

Hum ............... its very often somebody who deliberately wants to hide something ...........

The average DIYer doesn't have the knowledge this person appears to have ....................

I'm not trying to hide anything guys, but you're right the average DIYer won't have picked up their level 2 books and been reading over them (slowly) for the past 4 months or so I'd imagine.