Discuss Is this NICIEC extractor fan installation safe? in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

David Thomas

EF Member
Messages
7
Location
London
Hi,

Quick Q from a newbie. I had a NICIEC registered electrician install an isolation switch and extractor fan in my downstairs bathroom. I’m now replacing one of the down lights and found what is a surprising mess of wires in the false ceiling, all joined together with a terminal block (centre is neutral, left and right are live).

The grey cable leads to the isolation switch and the terminal block has been installed by the electricians. They’ve twisted the earth wire onto an existing twisted arrangement.

Is this safe/correct? I found it surprising from an Australian perspective but am open to being told that this is how things are done in Britain.

If this isn’t right, what should I do before adding the downloght? Put the terminal block in a junction box? Solder then sleeve twisted earthing wires?

My wife is back in an hour and I want everything back in the ceiling then, so prompt responses appreciated!

003C95EE-F332-4C1D-8622-5C8343E29349.jpeg

C3B358A2-435D-4924-8235-D501534F42AF.jpeg

1168CB1C-B024-486D-A8A0-5C1058A3C8FF.jpeg
 

MFS Electrical

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
1,153
Location
Scotland, Inverclyde, Greenock
Call back the cowboy that done that and tel him to fix it. Where do i start?

And btw: Hi and welcome to the forum, apologies it wasn’t the prompt reply you were after
 
Last edited:

MFS Electrical

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
1,153
Location
Scotland, Inverclyde, Greenock
The connections need to be enclosed in a suitable enclosure i.e a junction box, which will have to be maintenance free if it isn’t accessible and that is not an acceptable way to joint CPCs (earths) The NICEIC has a platinum promise so call up the guy who did this and tell him you’ll be sending pics to the niceic if he doesn’t get his butt back and sort it the way it should be done, also if he refuses to come back and sort it. Get on the phone to the NICEIC and make sure they send out someone who will do it right, their platinum promise thing means they will send someone else to do it for free if the original contractor won’t/can’t fix it.

Edit; after another look I have spotted some copper showing on the black termination to the far right for which there is no excuse and also the lack of proper identification of the cores i.e sleeving not to mention the obvious lack of sleeving for the CPCs

And personally I don’t think you should add anything to it until that mess has been rectified.
 
Last edited:

buzzlightyear

please let me back in to the prison cell.
Electrician's Arms
Messages
6,982
Location
star command
Is this safe/correct? I found it surprising from an Australian perspective but am open to being told that this is how things are done in Britain.
I can only apologise for a fellow spark has done .and you have the write to complain .send me his details and I will make sure that my big boots are on to kick him or she up the A77.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MDJ

MFS Electrical

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
1,153
Location
Scotland, Inverclyde, Greenock
I can only apologise for a fellow spark has done .and you have the write to complain .send me his details and I will make sure that my big boots are on to kick him or she up the A77.
I wouldn’t call the nugget that did this a spark any day of the week. I didn’t realise you have to write to complain that’s good to know for the future.

OP did you receive any sort of certificate for the work that had been done?
 

Strima

Electrician's Arms
Messages
3,630
Location
St Neots
That is rough and needs sorting out. Get him back to do it or raise a complaint with the NICEIC.
 

Murdoch

Regular EF Member
Messages
26,648
Location
Woking
The OP should send a copy of this information to the NICEIC in Luton, Marked for the attention of Emma Clancy - CEO ...
 
  • Like
Reactions: DPG

Murdoch

Regular EF Member
Messages
26,648
Location
Woking
The OP should send a copy of this information to the NICEIC in Luton, Marked for the attention of Emma Clancy - CEO ...
And send a copy to Watch Dog - make sure the NICEIC know this is happening
 

Sintra

The Innkeeper
Staff member
Admin
Messages
11,304
Location
Belfast/London
I would suggest that those connector blocks have been there before your electrician was it looks like the 3 white cables have at one time been a lighting point. However your electrician should not have added his new cable into that lot in that way. For the sake of a small enclosure a bit of sleeving and a few MF connectors it could have been done correctly.
 
OP
D

David Thomas

EF Member
Messages
7
Location
London
Thanks all. I haven't received a certificate but he tells me that he is planning to issue it once he gets a chance to come back to resolve one outstanding issue. Safety is my priority, but getting that certificate comes pretty close.

You actually prompted me to take a look, and I can't actually find him/his company listed on the NICEIC website. Not entirely sure what that means - my builder (who referred me to him) told me he was NICEIC registered and he and his partner came in NICEIC hoodies, but I didn't do any further checks. Hopefully they are just registered under a different name.

You might be right about the connector blocks - I may have made an unfair assumption.
 

MFS Electrical

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
1,153
Location
Scotland, Inverclyde, Greenock
Thanks all. I haven't received a certificate but he tells me that he is planning to issue it once he gets a chance to come back to resolve one outstanding issue. Safety is my priority, but getting that certificate comes pretty close.

You actually prompted me to take a look, and I can't actually find him/his company listed on the NICEIC website. Not entirely sure what that means - my builder (who referred me to him) told me he was NICEIC registered and he and his partner came in NICEIC hoodies, but I didn't do any further checks. Hopefully they are just registered under a different name.

You might be right about the connector blocks - I may have made an unfair assumption.
No matter if the connectors came before the spark he should have enclosed it and done it properly because he connected into it. If it was me I would have either told you about it or fixed it had I even noticed it never mind actually connected something to it. I would be asking them for their NICEIC registration number and what their company is actually called. The NICEIC will be very interested to hear if these people are purporting to be registered if they are not. With this standard of work left I’d be checking everything else that they done as well. Is the unprotected connector block the issue that they are returning to resolve or have they left some other horrors?
 
OP
D

David Thomas

EF Member
Messages
7
Location
London
Thanks; the outstanding issue is that an isolation switch does not actually isolate (not their fault - the switch is faulty I think). There are a couple more bits and pieces too - hob wasn't wired fully so is malfunctioning, one socket has the live and neutral switched around, and the extractor fans weren't connected to the ducting, just left to vent into the void space. But this is all stuff that I can fix myself if I have to, and have already pulled out the extractor fans and attached them to the ducting (I'm much less confident about terminations and junction boxes).

I have their official company name but it doesn't appear on the NICEIC website... If it emerges that they actually aren't NICEIC registered, would they still be able to issue a certificate to me? I'm conscious that some of the wiring they did is now under floorboards and carpeting, so suspect it would be difficult to get a certificate from someone else...
 

MFS Electrical

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
1,153
Location
Scotland, Inverclyde, Greenock
Thanks; the outstanding issue is that an isolation switch does not actually isolate (not their fault - the switch is faulty I think). There are a couple more bits and pieces too - hob wasn't wired fully so is malfunctioning, one socket has the live and neutral switched around, and the extractor fans weren't connected to the ducting, just left to vent into the void space. But this is all stuff that I can fix myself if I have to, and have already pulled out the extractor fans and attached them to the ducting (I'm much less confident about terminations and junction boxes).

I have their official company name but it doesn't appear on the NICEIC website... If it emerges that they actually aren't NICEIC registered, would they still be able to issue a certificate to me? I'm conscious that some of the wiring they did is now under floorboards and carpeting, so suspect it would be difficult to get a certificate from someone else...
From what you have said so far it appears that these people are purporting to be electricians never mind members of the NICEIC I’d probably be looking for a new spark to come in and check their work. You are correct though no reputable spark in their right mind would sign off someone else’s work without at the very least seeing it being installed or inspecting the entire run. No electrician would ever connect a socket up wrongly and energise it the Initial Verification (Inspection & Testing) should have all been done before the installation was put into service and this defect would have been highlighted and repaired had it been completed.
Any electrician can issue a certificate they don’t have to be registered with anyone, but you may fall foul part P trying to get it signed off if it applies or even building control if the electrical work was part of a bit of building work etc.
 
Last edited:

Pete999

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Messages
22,993
Location
Northampton
Hi,

Quick Q from a newbie. I had a NICIEC registered electrician install an isolation switch and extractor fan in my downstairs bathroom. I’m now replacing one of the down lights and found what is a surprising mess of wires in the false ceiling, all joined together with a terminal block (centre is neutral, left and right are live).

The grey cable leads to the isolation switch and the terminal block has been installed by the electricians. They’ve twisted the earth wire onto an existing twisted arrangement.

Is this safe/correct? I found it surprising from an Australian perspective but am open to being told that this is how things are done in Britain.

If this isn’t right, what should I do before adding the downloght? Put the terminal block in a junction box? Solder then sleeve twisted earthing wires?

My wife is back in an hour and I want everything back in the ceiling then, so prompt responses appreciated!

View attachment 45587

View attachment 45588

View attachment 45589
Whoever carried out this bodge want outing in public, right old cowboy job,
 

SparkyChick

Making a banana smoothy for my fave gorilla
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Solar Guru
Trainee Access
Messages
3,710
Location
South Wales
I'm going to say this again, and I'm going to keep saying it until the message gets through.

Various posts in this thread have been deleted because they provide no useful information, they just reboot the debate about the state of the industry.

Read this thread and take in what it says!

Reminder - Inappropriate content and abusive behaviour - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/reminder-inappropriate-content-and-abusive-behaviour.169218/

In the staff view, everyone can come here and ask questions and can expect to be treated with a certain level of respect.

Short coursers... when people post content that suggests all ill's in our industry are our fault... ignore them or report the post to staff.
 
OP
D

David Thomas

EF Member
Messages
7
Location
London
Thanks very much all. I'm inclined to give the electrician the benefit of the doubt for now so won't be naming/shaming:

- As you've pointed out, the white terminal block was probably there before he arrived. I've checked a couple of other light fittings in the house and it looks like they are wired the same way. It seems surprising that there are terminal blocks just lying loose in inaccessible areas, but there you go. The way the earth is connected (just twisted on with no sleeving) doesn't seem ideal to me, so I'll ask him to take another look - it may be we can squeeze some maintenance free junction boxes through the downlight hole.

- I think he may have subbed out the installation, but he seems willing (at least in principle - he seems really busy so hasn't been able to get here for the last month, but genuinely concerned that I'm happy/looked after) - to look at and address issues that I've found.

- There is (now!) a question mark as to whether he is NICEIC registered, but if he can give a certificate that will at least mean the house is saleable in the future without needing to get a full EICR. After I get that certificate, I can get a second opinion and do anything needed to bring this up to best practice.
 
Last edited:

Pete999

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Messages
22,993
Location
Northampton
she will say take it up with the sparky who did the job .me try watchdog.
Or waffle her way out of the situation.
No matter if the connectors came before the spark he should have enclosed it and done it properly because he connected into it. If it was me I would have either told you about it or fixed it had I even noticed it never mind actually connected something to it. I would be asking them for their NICEIC registration number and what their company is actually called. The NICEIC will be very interested to hear if these people are purporting to be registered if they are not. With this standard of work left I’d be checking everything else that they done as well. Is the unprotected connector block the issue that they are returning to resolve or have they left some other horrors?
I agree with MFS, regardless of if the connector block was already there, and it seems so from what has been said.
It should have been made safe, done properly, and noted on the certificate that in His/Her opinion the client should have an EICR carried out on the property, judging from the evidence that was apparent during the installation of the switch.
To further butcher the installation in this way is wrong, and two wrongs don't make a right do they?
 

Murdoch

Regular EF Member
Messages
26,648
Location
Woking
A5564980-1FEF-4EED-A372-3AFA3056DA76.jpeg Not commenting on the badge or competence but using choc block is sheer laziness....

But use of modern connections, not contained in an appropriate enclosure is on the rise ...

Like this...
 
Last edited:

telectrix

Disrespected Scouser
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
63,525
Location
cheshire/staffordshire
View attachment 45602 Not commenting on the badge or competence but using choc block is sheer laziness....

But use of modern connections, not contained in an appropriate enclosure is on the rise ...

Like this...
poor guy is probably waiting for his line products enclosures to arrive.
 

ChrisElectrical88

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
1,599
Location
Norwich
Rough as a bears arse. Report him to the NIC either way, they will have him for mis using their logo if hes not registered.
 

DPG

Respected Member
Electrician's Arms
Messages
5,487
Location
S Yorkshire
I would be very worried after reading this:

...an isolation switch does not actually isolate (not their fault - the switch is faulty I think). There are a couple more bits and pieces too - hob wasn't wired fully so is malfunctioning, one socket has the live and neutral switched around, and the extractor fans weren't connected to the ducting, just left to vent into the void space.
 

ChrisElectrical88

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
1,599
Location
Norwich
I would be very worried after reading this:

...an isolation switch does not actually isolate (not their fault - the switch is faulty I think). There are a couple more bits and pieces too - hob wasn't wired fully so is malfunctioning, one socket has the live and neutral switched around, and the extractor fans weren't connected to the ducting, just left to vent into the void space.
Crossed polarity in the socket indicates no testing was taken out. Love to know how a hob wasnt wired fully
 
  • Like
Reactions: DPG
OP
D

David Thomas

EF Member
Messages
7
Location
London
Chris, it’s a 7.5kw induction hob that can be wired into a two phase supply, the idea I think being that by having each half of the job on a different phase, it’s a bit nicer to the DNO. I only have a single phase meter, so it’s necessary to bridge the wiring in the terminal block
on the hob.

My wife pointed out to me that the left two burners were giving an error message. I lifted out the hob and checked the wiring and found only one of the phase inputs had been connected (the rightmost connectors in the terminal block).
 

Murdoch

Regular EF Member
Messages
26,648
Location
Woking
I hate to suggest you spend more money but from what you'v written here, suggests that you should get a different, local spark, via recommendation to undertake an EICR.............
 
  • Like
Reactions: DPG

GMES

Admin
Staff member
Admin
Messages
9,209
Location
Under the banana tree.
I haven't read all the thread but if you are worried and it sounds like you should be then take Murdoch's advice and get another electrician in to check it all.
 

markythesparky

Electrician's Arms
Messages
558
Location
Surrey
Chris, it’s a 7.5kw induction hob that can be wired into a two phase supply, the idea I think being that by having each half of the job on a different phase, it’s a bit nicer to the DNO. I only have a single phase meter, so it’s necessary to bridge the wiring in the terminal block
on the hob.

My wife pointed out to me that the left two burners were giving an error message. I lifted out the hob and checked the wiring and found only one of the phase inputs had been connected (the rightmost connectors in the terminal block).
If this guy or madam is a qualified electrician, I will be a monkeys uncle and if you get a properly filled out certificate, I will eat my hat!
 

MDJ

The Muppet Police
Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
1,280
Location
Gloucester
Hang on how do we know the spark did it? there may have been a feed hanging out from the ceiling and he just used that and didn't see the mess which was found when the OP was changing a light, if he did know then yes lets crucify him :D
 

1Justin

Electrician's Arms
Messages
464
Location
Surrey
Bathroom upgrades and extract fans seem to attract the very worst of the worst. Perhaps because householders plans often focus on the lowest cost quotes, and it's all about the cost of the marble tiles...
And it's not just electrics. - The quality of ductwork for airflow management and humidity can be just as horrifying. Out of sight, out of mind. I regularly need to "rescue" installations after bathroom fitters have left. Recent ones:

IMG_20180226_122749.jpg

IMG_20181005_094741.jpg
 

Permanent unswitched live colour?

  • Brown

    Votes: 60 66.7%
  • Black

    Votes: 30 33.3%

Electrician Talk

Electrical Forum

Welcome to the Electrical Forum at ElectriciansForums.net. The friendliest electrical forum online. General electrical questions and answers can be found in the electrical forum.
Top