Kitchen downlights have no earth - how to tell if double insulated or not?

[jackhulk]

Hello all

Council is here for the last day of full re-wire but there is one small problem with my kitchen eyeball downlights.

There are five downlights (roughly 20 years old) in the kitchen which I'm told are not earthed and therefore will have to be disconnected, pendant or strip light put up for testing as per council regs and then if I choose I could have them re-connect new downlights as private job. Anyone know how much this should cost please (new cable already in place)? I'm thinking I could fit the new downlights myself, that is if they leave the cables in place? Is it likely they would leave cables in place should I advise I do not want them re-connect right away or would they remove them?

Also I've just been to shop that stock same lights that I thought would have the third earth wire but it does not, only has two wires the same as my current ones. Via google learnt that if lights are doubled insulated then no earth is required so now I'm thinking perhaps my current ones are double insulated, but is there any way to find out for sure?

On the new ones in the shop had backwards D symbol like this D--E 0.5m. What does that mean please?

Anything else in general I should be checking/asking while the electricians are still here?

Thanks again.

P.S Found PDF for new downlights (mine will be the dl1003) which confirms no earth needed. As these are identical to my current ones I suspect these too are double insulated but need to be sure.

http://www.mygreenlighting.co.uk/downloads/360/RO80 Downlight Instructions.pdf

 

[telectrix]

if your current downlights have only 2 terminals in the connector block, then they don't require earthing. however the cable to them should have a cpc ( twin/earth) with the cpc terminated in a blind connector.

 

[jackhulk]

Don't know what cpc terminated means but the electricians have wired up all the downlights for time being so I have light. These will be disconnected today, pedant put up for testing. Had a look and I believe the T&E is present with the earth which ends in a junction box (think that's what's its called, small plastic see-through box?).

Heres a pic....

 

[Octopus]

If the council are doing a full rewire then the cabling they are putting in must have an earth and as telectrix says they will need to connect earth to earth at each light fitting.

Maybe they are just saying they don't believe your 20 year old fittings are class II (which wouldn't need an earth)

Sounds like you've got a jobs worth on your hands!

Where are you? Maybe one of the members here could drop round and take a look for you.

Good luck

 

[Deleted member 9648]

2 terminals in a connector are not a reliable indicator of double insulation,some luminaires have an earth terminal on the metal case of the light.....Look for a symbol of a small square within a larger square which means the light is class ii,or double insulated.
The symbol you refer to in the OP is the minimum distance from lighted objects....in this case,0.5m

 

[IQ Electrical]

Hello all

Council is here for the last day of full re-wire but there is one small problem with my kitchen eyeball downlights.

There are five downlights (roughly 20 years old) in the kitchen which I'm told are not earthed and therefore will have to be disconnected, pendant or strip light put up for testing as per council regs and then if I choose I could have them re-connect new downlights as private job. Anyone know how much this should cost please (new cable already in place)? I'm thinking I could fit the new downlights myself, that is if they leave the cables in place? Is it likely they would leave cables in place should I advise I do not want them re-connect right away or would they remove them?

Also I've just been to shop that stock same lights that I thought would have the third earth wire but it does not, only has two wires the same as my current ones. Via google learnt that if lights are doubled insulated then no earth is required so now I'm thinking perhaps my current ones are double insulated, but is there any way to find out for sure?

On the new ones in the shop had backwards D symbol like this D--E 0.5m. What does that mean please?Anything else in general I should be checking/asking while the electricians are still here?

Thanks again.

P.S Found PDF for new downlights (mine will be the dl1003) which confirms no earth needed. As these are identical to my current ones I suspect these too are double insulated but need to be sure.

http://www.mygreenlighting.co.uk/downloads/360/RO80 Downlight Instructions.pdf

That symbol and figure with it is the minimum distance in Metres that the luminaire and beam should be kept away from combustible materials.

 

[jackhulk]

Thanks all. Just spoke to electrician and showed him the above manual stating no earth required due to being double insulated, however he is adamant that earth is a must to be 100% safe?! This is the only model I've been able to find that is the correct size for hole, all others are too small. Surely double insulated downlights wouldn't be sold unless 100% safe?

 

[telectrix]

if those downlights are class II, then he's talking through his arse. ask him what he intends connecting the cpc to!

 

[Octopus]

Thanks all. Just spoke to electrician and showed him the above manual stating no earth required due to being double insulated, however he is adamant that earth is a must to be 100% safe?! This is the only model I've been able to find that is the correct size for hole, all others are too small. Surely double insulated downlights wouldn't be sold unless 100% safe?

Sorry mate but it does sound like you've got a jobs worth on your hands and judging by his views on your downlights I'm not convinced he should be doing your rewire.

Suggest you post your location and I'm sure there will be a member close by who can help you.

If you don't want to post your location do a search on the site here:

Electricians Unite - Jobs In Your Area

Good luck

 

[jackhulk]

Not sure if they are class II, only got the manual above to go on I'm afraid. These are the actual downlights....

Elco R.80 Eyeball Fitting - Chrome - QVS Electrical Supplies | Electrical Wholesaler

I went to the shop today to get more info but I think I knew more than the teenager behind the counter and so couldn't help.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

You can ask the electrician what he means by council regs, does he mean the decent homes standard?

 

[jackhulk]

I think he just means council would rather something simple to maintain such as single pendant rather than five downlights. Have no issue with that as actual council inspect who agree re-wire said the same.

 

[paturback]

These are double insulated fittings as can be seen by their catalogue page 45 and do not require earth as other have already said

 

[jackhulk]

Thank you Murdoch, will do a search as advised if needed, but first just need to workout how to find out if old/new lights are class II or not.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

Councils will always try to install a basic blank canvas, but if you are an existing tenant and your requirements are within the allowances of the decent home standard then they should be fulfilled.

 

[paturback]

just click thanks

 

[jackhulk]

Thanks paturback and understand that but does that mean they are class II? Is there anything that should be on my old lights that would confirm if earth is required or not?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Look for the class ii symbol...a small square within a larger square.....either that or it will state class ii.
If neither are present it will not be class ii.

 

[paturback]

Yes they are class ll

 

[jackhulk]

Thanks all. So now know the new ones are class II and will check old ones for symbol today after electricians have left. Strange he would say the new ones are not suitable due to no earth. Surely he must know about class II?! He said they would still connect but ones with earth would be safer.

If the old ones have no class II symbol would you recommend I replace with new ones? Had old ones for 20 odd years, surely if something was to go wrong would have happened by now, unless I've just been lucky.