Discuss Kitchen installer expanding. in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

thebartman

New EF Member
Messages
4
Location
Huddersfield
Hi guys, chances are I might get flamed for this but what the hell.... :p

I currently run a kitchen design and installation business and the electrical side is problematic for us, we subcontract so depend on various people across our area however, at times this makes quoting for jobs difficult, erodes our profit and puts the quality of our service in the hands of others so the obvious solution us to bring it in house.

Weve spoken to training providers and have identified the C&G 4141-01 / 2393 / 2392-10 / 2382 as a potential option.

The problem arises with part P certification, namely getting the work signed off until we have enough of a portfolio to join a registered body as this line if work wouldnt be our daily bread a butter.

So, my question is, how realistic is third party or building control sign off in this situation and how does it work?

Obviously I've asked a few of the bodies for more info but have yet to get replies so thought I might get an outline here.

Apologies in advance if this is a much covered topic but really would appreciate some help and advice.
 

Megawatt

Regular EF Member
Messages
227
Location
NC. Gastonia
Hi guys, chances are I might get flamed for this but what the hell.... :p

I currently run a kitchen design and installation business and the electrical side is problematic for us, we subcontract so depend on various people across our area however, at times this makes quoting for jobs difficult, erodes our profit and puts the quality of our service in the hands of others so the obvious solution us to bring it in house.

Weve spoken to training providers and have identified the C&G 4141-01 / 2393 / 2392-10 / 2382 as a potential option.

The problem arises with part P certification, namely getting the work signed off until we have enough of a portfolio to join a registered body as this line if work wouldnt be our daily bread a butter.

So, my question is, how realistic is third party or building control sign off in this situation and how does it work?

Obviously I've asked a few of the bodies for more info but have yet to get replies so thought I might get an outline here.

Apologies in advance if this is a much covered topic but really would appreciate some help and advice.
Hire a qualified electrician get to know them and use the same company for your upgrades
 
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T

thebartman

New EF Member
Messages
4
Location
Huddersfield
As I said mate, we subcontract a few already but service quite a large area so using the same contractor isn't realistic nor is employing someone full time.

Financially and from a logistic point of view it would make a lot more sence to up skill in house as we would be creating multi skilled employees rather than employing someone just for electrical work.

Were certainly not doing 52 weeks of electrical work, that's for sure.

Not a slight at anyone on this forum but as we need quick and reliable response and have found this to be sporadic at best when subcontracting and also we find variations in the way people work causes integration problems so it absolutely makes sence to have a multi skilled employee on our books.
 

Paignton pete

Regular EF Member
Messages
978
Location
Over the rainbow
Third party sign off may be difficult as niceic don’t do third party.
I believe only napit registered do this.

Building control sign off will charge you in excess of £250. And probably contract a napit sparky to do this anyway. Different building control areas different prices and procedures.

It may be financially viable to train someone up in house, but to do it will take 3 or 4 years at least. Unless you are thinking of going the short course route, which is not a good idea.

The short course route will not give you the quals or experience to become registered with an approved scheme.

Every registration body expects a minimum qualification and at least 2 years on tools experience. These are the minimum requirements.
 

Strima

Electrician's Arms
Messages
3,629
Location
St Neots
If you're expanding then it would be better to get an electrician on the books.

You will more than likely be carrying out notifiable works at some point and this would be easier and cheaper to do when part of a self certification scheme with a scheme provider such as the NICEIC/NAPIT/STROMA etc.

It's easier to train an electrician to do other works than the other way round. Kitchen fitters who do electrics tend to be the worst for cutting corners and leaving poor/dangerous installations.
 
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thebartman

New EF Member
Messages
4
Location
Huddersfield
Definitely food for thought guys however were not expanding per say, more looking at ways to be more efficient and offer a more rounded service. I'd love to be in a place where I could afford more staff but from a cost to benefit perspective were probably not there yet.

The point about cutting corners probably says more about some 'kitchen fitters' than the trade generally, some kitchen fitters cant fit a worktop for example, that's just not how we work. Quality first.

One thing that has sparked my interest about the short courses not offering the correct qualifications, the training providers we have spoken to are saying the complete opposite, the line they are giving us is, employee will be qualified to C&G level and all the would need would be building control or third party sign off following works.

There seems to be a disparity between the previous comments and what the training providers are saying and I'm wondering what I'm missing?

Thanks for the input guys.
 

Paignton pete

Regular EF Member
Messages
978
Location
Over the rainbow
Don’t speak to the course providers they have no power to say they are able to register you or not. All they want is your money and will tell you anything to get you on the course. They won’t lie, but they won’t disclose everything.

You can trip them up if you know the right questions to ask.


Speak to napit/ elects a/ niceic. They are the ones who will say yes or no to registration not the course providers.
 
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thebartman

New EF Member
Messages
4
Location
Huddersfield
Thanks guys, appreciate the advice, I have directed similar questions to a couple if bodies, think its probably prudent to seek there input before giving this any more thought or investing any money.
 

Robson689

Regular EF Member
Messages
193
Location
UK
Definitely food for thought guys however were not expanding per say, more looking at ways to be more efficient and offer a more rounded service. I'd love to be in a place where I could afford more staff but from a cost to benefit perspective were probably not there yet.

The point about cutting corners probably says more about some 'kitchen fitters' than the trade generally, some kitchen fitters cant fit a worktop for example, that's just not how we work. Quality first.

One thing that has sparked my interest about the short courses not offering the correct qualifications, the training providers we have spoken to are saying the complete opposite, the line they are giving us is, employee will be qualified to C&G level and all the would need would be building control or third party sign off following works.

There seems to be a disparity between the previous comments and what the training providers are saying and I'm wondering what I'm missing?

Thanks for the input guys.
Anyone can get electrical work signed off via building control or third party scheme. They are just trying to sell their courses but ultimately you'll be paying hundreds per job to get it signed off as someone said above.
 

Pretty Mouth

Regular EF Member
Messages
64
Location
Warwickshire
I took the short course route. I'm not on a part p scheme yet (I use a 3rd party guy), but most of the other guys from the course are, NICEIC being the most popular as there's no minimum experience required. Stroma want 2 years, as do Napit I believe. So you can get registered via the short course route.
 

Paignton pete

Regular EF Member
Messages
978
Location
Over the rainbow
I took the short course route. I'm not on a part p scheme yet (I use a 3rd party guy), but most of the other guys from the course are, NICEIC being the most popular as there's no minimum experience required. Stroma want 2 years, as do Napit I believe. So you can get registered via the short course route.
Which short course was that?

Was it the domestic installer and 18th edition courses?

How many day at college was it?

Genuinely curious not having a go.
 

Baddegg

Still simmering Ken, not boiled yet buddy x
Electrician's Arms
Messages
1,402
Location
Portsmouth
I was in the same boat as you @thebartman, I run a building firm and was getting fed up with space is wanting the earth and letting me down and rather ironically the short course sparks not having a clue, so I took some time out and Laboured for a spark myself for approximately 18 months I then went on the 6 week course and have never looked back.
Please don’t listen to the course providers they will teach you to pass an exam but in the real world experience is king and you’ll sink quickly, if you are looking to put your name to a certificate I’d make sure you know what you are talking about should the worst happen, I’m not saying don’t do it, many have and have succeeded in the domestic area, but it is so much more than just doing the course and thinking you will be ok
 

GBDamo

Subscribed Member
Messages
918
Location
UK
Third party sign off may be difficult as niceic don’t do third party.
I believe only napit registered do this.

Building control sign off will charge you in excess of £250. And probably contract a napit sparky to do this anyway. Different building control areas different prices and procedures.

It may be financially viable to train someone up in house, but to do it will take 3 or 4 years at least. Unless you are thinking of going the short course route, which is not a good idea.

The short course route will not give you the quals or experience to become registered with an approved scheme.

Every registration body expects a minimum qualification and at least 2 years on tools experience. These are the minimum requirements.
I have to disagree there, the OPs situation is exaclty what the short corses were supposed to be for and will offer all the qualifications required.

It is the pratical skills that will be lacking.

As far as work portfolio goes most CP schemes will require a substantial piece of work to assess including at least one new circuit along with documentary evidence of insurances, policies and procedures as well as thr requisite regulatory documentation and calibrated test equipment.

In brief, if you have someone who has the aptitude and willingness to take this on then the short courses should fulfill your needs. You may need your candidate to shadow an experienced spark for a while.
 

GBDamo

Subscribed Member
Messages
918
Location
UK
Definitely food for thought guys however were not expanding per say, more looking at ways to be more efficient and offer a more rounded service. I'd love to be in a place where I could afford more staff but from a cost to benefit perspective were probably not there yet.

The point about cutting corners probably says more about some 'kitchen fitters' than the trade generally, some kitchen fitters cant fit a worktop for example, that's just not how we work. Quality first.

One thing that has sparked my interest about the short courses not offering the correct qualifications, the training providers we have spoken to are saying the complete opposite, the line they are giving us is, employee will be qualified to C&G level and all the would need would be building control or third party sign off following works.

There seems to be a disparity between the previous comments and what the training providers are saying and I'm wondering what I'm missing?

Thanks for the input guys.
It would appear they are not including initial verification course, which is available.


Firstbon to show up on google, not necessarily a recommendation
 

Paignton pete

Regular EF Member
Messages
978
Location
Over the rainbow
You will still need 2 years experience to register so you can sign off your own work.

Yes the short course will give you enough training to be able to test a circuit and issue minor works certificate that doesn’t need signing off, but not the practical experience you will need to complete the job. You won’t be able to sign off notifyable works.
 

GBDamo

Subscribed Member
Messages
918
Location
UK
Where did that 2 years come from, I set up with NIC the day after my short course finished, no mention of 2 years.

More recently with NAPIT again no mention of two years.

Both allowed for signing off notifyable work.

Again, this is exactly what the short courses are for, or so i was led to believe.
 

Baddegg

Still simmering Ken, not boiled yet buddy x
Electrician's Arms
Messages
1,402
Location
Portsmouth
Where did that 2 years come from, I set up with NIC the day after my short course finished, no mention of 2 years.

More recently with NAPIT again no mention of two years.

Both allowed for signing off notifyable work.

Again, this is exactly what the short courses are for, or so i was led to believe.
Stroma before napit, specified 2 years experience
 

Paignton pete

Regular EF Member
Messages
978
Location
Over the rainbow
Where did that 2 years come from, I set up with NIC the day after my short course finished, no mention of 2 years.

More recently with NAPIT again no mention of two years.

Both allowed for signing off notifyable work.

Again, this is exactly what the short courses are for, or so i was led to believe.
The 2 years is in the nic literature . I’ll try and dig it out.
I’m surprised you where registered without practical experience in the trade.
 

GBDamo

Subscribed Member
Messages
918
Location
UK
The 2 years is in the nic literature . I’ll try and dig it out.
I’m surprised you where registered without practical experience in the trade.
Well ive a few more than two now and genuinely didnt BS them.

My first assesment was the best part of a day, second barely an hour..

I'm starting to get your guys misgivings about the CP schemes.
 

Paignton pete

Regular EF Member
Messages
978
Location
Over the rainbow
When I registered about 9 years ago nic insisted on 2 years on tools relevant electrical experience , however I am gobsmacked to discover that is no longer the case on reading the registration criteria.
GBDamo you are quite correct.

Wow.

Not sure what more to say about that.
 

Pretty Mouth

Regular EF Member
Messages
64
Location
Warwickshire
Which short course was that?

Was it the domestic installer and 18th edition courses?

How many day at college was it?

Genuinely curious not having a go.
You're welcome to have a go Pete, it's no less than I deserve (though not necessarily for the reasons you think ;))

Yes, domestic installer. I did 3 weeks. 1st week was key skills - practical skills and theory combined. Not an official qualification. 2nd week was the building regs course and the 17th edition. 3rd week level 2 inspection, test and verification. There's a 4th 'experience week' as well which I didn't do.

My overall view of the course was positive, although I think rather too intensive. I already had experience, and had been teaching myself the theory for several months prior, so managed well and got a lot out of it. If it had all been completely new to me, I'm not sure how I'd have got on.

If you have any more questions, just ask :)
 

Baddegg

Still simmering Ken, not boiled yet buddy x
Electrician's Arms
Messages
1,402
Location
Portsmouth
Did the same thing @Pretty Mouth, spent months cramming the theory before I did the course and it was easy enough after that, it was a shame watching all the people on the course fail that had fallen for the providers spiel, many of them ex service men who had basically just blown they resettlement money.....

I should also add I was very fortunate to have sat next to one of the cleverest people I have ever met in my life, he read the regs for fun and could quote them verbatim, I’d love to meet him again and say thanks properly :)
 

Pretty Mouth

Regular EF Member
Messages
64
Location
Warwickshire
Baddegg, yeah it definitely helped. Most of the guys seemed to be doing ok when I did the course, but there was one guy from an office background who'd believed the BS, he was really struggling. I think he only did the first week fortunately.
 

Baddegg

Still simmering Ken, not boiled yet buddy x
Electrician's Arms
Messages
1,402
Location
Portsmouth
Baddegg, yeah it definitely helped. Most of the guys seemed to be doing ok when I did the course, but there was one guy from an office background who'd believed the BS, he was really struggling. I think he only did the first week fortunately.
It’s hard to watch as well because it is so intense and obviously if you are self funding you can’t stop to help anyone....I got talking to the lecturer who basically admitted he could spot the fails after the first day.....tough old world mate
 
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Matthewd29

Regular EF Member
Messages
1,292
Location
Belfast
This is interesting. Do you think the short courses provided enough practical experience and hands on learning or did you have to seek some elsewhere?
 

Megawatt

Regular EF Member
Messages
227
Location
NC. Gastonia
This is interesting. Do you think the short courses provided enough practical experience and hands on learning or did you have to seek some elsewhere?
Hire a qualified electrician get to know them and use the same company for your upgrades
all schools do is put you in a position to learn the trade but you will learn a whole lot more. Nothing like on the job training
 
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anthonybragg

Electrician's Arms
Messages
4,452
Location
NORTHAMPTON
I think for the O.P. is that every installation will be different. Some will be textbook and easy to do alterations, some will be a bodge to start with eg spurs, off spurs, off spurs where extra sockets have been required for the existing kitchen. Yhis is something that these training centres can not prepare you for.
 

JK-Electrical

Politically Incorrect
Electrician's Arms
Messages
929
Location
Glasgow
I
I think for the O.P. is that every installation will be different. Some will be textbook and easy to do alterations, some will be a bodge to start with eg spurs, off spurs, off spurs where extra sockets have been required for the existing kitchen. Yhis is something that these training centres can not prepare you for.
Not to mention .....

.... sockets positioned directly behind appliances making them an absolute b*****d to access when carrying-out Zs and portable appliance testing, or fault-finding.

.... downlights with basic insulation showing that have been incorrectly terminated directly into a choc connectors instead of an enclosure and installed too close to joists.

.... ovens and hobs wired with incorrectly sized and inappropriate flexes

.... alterations and additions and new circuits added to kitchens without adequate bonding and RCD protection being in place.

.... no certification issued to clients upon completion of work undertaken.

This is what I more often than not discover in recently refurbished kitchens. Clearly not the work of professional electricians who know what they're doing and care about the quality of their workmanship.
 

anthonybragg

Electrician's Arms
Messages
4,452
Location
NORTHAMPTON
I


Not to mention .....

.... sockets positioned directly behind appliances making them an absolute b*****d to access when carrying-out Zs and portable appliance testing, or fault-finding.

.... downlights with basic insulation showing that have been incorrectly terminated directly into a choc connectors instead of an enclosure and installed too close to joists.

.... ovens and hobs wired with incorrectly sized and inappropriate flexes

.... alterations and additions and new circuits added to kitchens without adequate bonding and RCD protection being in place.

.... no certification issued to clients upon completion of work undertaken.

This is what I more often than not discover in recently refurbished kitchens. Clearly not the work of professional electricians who know what they're doing and care about the quality of their workmanship.
Whilst I agree with the above I was more referring to it is hard enough for us experienced electricians sometimes to suss out the existing installation before we start an alteration yet alone someone who has been on one of these short courses. I would like to hear from someone who had been on one of these short courses how they found it straight in the deep end.
 

Pretty Mouth

Regular EF Member
Messages
64
Location
Warwickshire
This is interesting. Do you think the short courses provided enough practical experience and hands on learning or did you have to seek some elsewhere?
Whilst I agree with the above I was more referring to it is hard enough for us experienced electricians sometimes to suss out the existing installation before we start an alteration yet alone someone who has been on one of these short courses. I would like to hear from someone who had been on one of these short courses how they found it straight in the deep end.
I already had some electrical experience, plus many years working in construction, had educated myself to an extent, and never went straight in at the deep end, more a slow gradual, ongoing immersion. The course gives the basics but real world experience is key - the advise during the course was get experience with an experienced spark.

If people are led to believe they can go from zero to hero in the duration of the course, they'll be disappointed. That said, for me and the range of work I do, it was an adequate starting point.
 

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