Lack of RCD protection and how far we ahve to go?

[craig1000]

In brief - new bathroom going in and alterations required for inclusion of spot lights and a fan.

No RCD protection - old wylex rewirable - CPC's in all cables.

Main bonding not up to scratch - 6mm off the service cable sheath onto gas then into DB and then 6mm off DB that goes to water.

What is the minimum we have to insist upon before I say not prepared to touch it?

RCD protection is a must as I see it but am having the customer whinge regards cost and have seen people say about if the refuse then you can do the work and put the lack of RCD protection as a departure from the regs due to customers refusal to upgrade? Not even sure if I'd want to but just wondering thoughts so I know where we stand - finds that things are so often not conclusive in regs :-/

Such a minor cost to just divert the upstairs lighting through a RCD enclosure at the DB but they are still whining at the cost - beggers belief thousands on a new bathroom suite yet they never care for their electrical safety.

 

[telectrix]

i would walk unless they agree to RCD protection for all bathroom circuits and upgrade to earthing/bonding as a minimum requirement. if you don't install to BS7671, you're leaving yourself wide open to legal proceedings and possible jail if the muppet electrocutes himself using a hair dryewr in the bath.

 

[craig1000]

Thanks Tel - we are always prepared to walk just wanted to double check again my views are correct as sometimes wonder if its me being over cautious when I see or hear of people avoiding doing things.

 

[telectrix]

just a mention on earthing/bonding. from your post, it looks like it's TN-S and so the size of the earthing and bonding cables may be adequate by using the adiabatic.

 

[craig1000]

Yeah I need to double check on that - just a quick overview on things so said not up to scratch as not ideal for what I'd like to see - my bad on the wording.

 

[telectrix]

quite often, when you apply the adiabatic, it will come up with a min. csa for main earthing conductor around 2.5mm. or less.

 

[craig1000]

Quick one Tel as not seen the earthing like this before - the 6mm comes from the service cable clamp, onto the gas pipe then upt to the DB and out of it and off to the water?

I am thinking a MET is required and tidy it up - as TNS and you pointed out the 6mm will suffice so no need to upgrade but do I leave it as it is or provide a MET and put mainearth into this and then a link to DB and the protective bonds into it?

Appreciate your responses this morning.

 

[telectrix]

as you say. fit a MET to the MEC, then marshall the earthing conductor to the cU and the bonding conductors to the MET. ( or you could use the earth bar in the CU as MET).

 

[craig1000]

Cheer mate - appreciated!

 

[Risteard]

people say about if the refuse then you can do the work and put the lack of RCD protection as a departure from the regs due to customers refusal to upgrade?

Departures are really intended for new innovations which could not be included by the Regs, and they must provide an equivalent degree of safety. I can't see how it could be argued that lack of RCD protection can provide an equivalent degree of safety as RCD protection!

 

[craig1000]

Departures are really intended for new innovations which could not be included by the Regs, and they must provide an equivalent degree of safety. I can't see how it could be argued that lack of RCD protection can provide an equivalent degree of safety as RCD protection!

Totally agree and was not my intention to do so - was just trying to gauge other views on this as was feeling a little like I was being the wrong one for ding it right and insisting on these things to customers etc and builders we work for too. I know it sounds silly as I have been right but clearly I have been allowing my correct thoughts to be clouded by too many idiots. As I say hasn't affected my stance or position but just wanted reassuring I wasn't doing wrong by customers by insisting on upgrades where required.

 

[D Skelton]

Sorting the bonding and earthing out is a bit of minor jiggery pokery with the cables at the service end from what it sounds like, so alomst no extra cost there. With regards to the new bathroom, an RCD SFCU above the door on the outside will do the trick.

Divert the existing loops in and out through a MF junction box and take a new feed to the RCD SFCU and back again to the new light/s.

That's what, an extra £50 on the job at most? £25 for the RCD SFCU and £25 for a half hours labour routing cable to the door and sticking a drylining box in there? It'll be just £25 for the bare cost of the RCD SFCU if you're already planning on routing cables to above the door anyway for a potentially unneccesary fan isolator (had to get that in there ).

 

[craig1000]

Sorting the bonding and earthing out is a bit of minor jiggery pokery with the cables at the service end from what it sounds like, so alomst no extra cost there. With regards to the new bathroom, an RCD SFCU above the door on the outside will do the trick.

Divert the existing loops in and out through a MF junction box and take a new feed to the RCD SFCU and back again to the new light/s.

That's what, an extra £50 on the job at most? £25 for the RCD SFCU and £25 for a half hours labour routing cable to the door and sticking a drylining box in there? It'll be just £25 for the bare cost of the RCD SFCU if you're already planning on routing cables to above the door anyway for a potentially unneccesary fan isolator (had to get that in there ).

Couldn't agree more regards the cost being so little but surprises me what people seem to question! :-(

Agree the jiggery for the earthing on this one is negligible .

For the same £50 cost will just as easy put the whole circuit on a RCD / RCBO in an enclosure at the DB diverting the circuit through that.

As said already its not me with the issues in doing it - just seem to be getting so many questioning the small costs of such additional works that are required.

 

[Guest111]

Part of the problem with doing jobs properly is people only see the bit they want done,many years ago when outdoor sockets were pretty scarce and expensive,IIRC they were metal and you bought the plug and socket separately,a guy asked me to fit one anyway not wanting to buy the correct kit his solution was to suggest a plastic patress on the wall with an ordinary socket in a small wooden box!My answer was "in that case do it yourself because if I do it and someone gets hurt it's me in court,you do it and it's just another diy'er who doesn't know better"

 

[Andy78]

Couldn't agree more regards the cost being so little but surprises me what people seem to question! :-(

Agree the jiggery for the earthing on this one is negligible .

For the same £50 cost will just as easy put the whole circuit on a RCD / RCBO in an enclosure at the DB diverting the circuit through that.

As said already its not me with the issues in doing it - just seem to be getting so many questioning the small costs of such additional works that are required.

Leave them with the quote and tell them to call you if they want it doing. Do your job not only to the regs, but also to the standards you are happy with. You are a professional and no penny pinching whinger should persuade you to compromise your work.
There are plenty of skinflints out there, and plenty cowboys to do their work for them. Leave them to it.

If it just a case of a customer not understanding the requirements of your work then you can only do your best to educate them about the requirements of the regs and their safety. It's rare for customers not to glaze over, but keep it simple and you should be right.

 

[telectrix]

:behead:too much common sense in this thread. where's geordie?

 

[Octopus]

When you talk about the earthing and bonding with clients, some think you are trying to charge them for unnecessary work, if they use email send them the link to the relevent page on the ESC covering this very subject, or print it off and post it to them.

If only the muppets who come up with this stuff, visited the coal face to understand the complete lack of knowledge that Joe Public has AND then went way and did something about it!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

In brief - new bathroom going in and alterations required for inclusion of spot lights and a fan.

No RCD protection - old wylex rewirable - CPC's in all cables.

Main bonding not up to scratch - 6mm off the service cable sheath onto gas then into DB and then 6mm off DB that goes to water.

What is the minimum we have to insist upon before I say not prepared to touch it?

RCD protection is a must as I see it but am having the customer whinge regards cost and have seen people say about if the refuse then you can do the work and put the lack of RCD protection as a departure from the regs due to customers refusal to upgrade? Not even sure if I'd want to but just wondering thoughts so I know where we stand - finds that things are so often not conclusive in regs :-/

Such a minor cost to just divert the upstairs lighting through a RCD enclosure at the DB but they are still whining at the cost - beggers belief thousands on a new bathroom suite yet they never care for their electrical safety.

any crossbonding?

 

[polo1]

Who upset the bonding???:rofl:

 

[tooleystreet]

Yes if I'd never seen it myself I would have called you a liar Craig,,can't believe my meter man goes in that cupboard and never says a word...the thought of some random housewives fuse box setting off a fire must be funny to him...lol. it was me that put in the new rcbs to replace the old satellite brown ones...the landlord is too mean...and these trip regularly ..