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Dear all - I am looking to install some LED strip lighting (it will be wall-mounted near the ceiling, behind some uplight coving). The plan is to pull the power from the mains under the floor and chase the cabling into the wall (brick wall, no studs), to then be cemented/plastered/polyfillered) in, which emerges at ceiling level.

Here are the proposed specs and units (3 runs all going back to the receivers to keep each length <5m). The tape is a 12V, RGBW 14.4W/m with 60LEDS per section. There are no extra cuts as the tape can wrap around the wall due to them being wall mounted facing internally, and not upward

Power Supply
https://www.wholesaleledlights.co.uk/led-strip-lights/led-power-supplies/240w-led-driver.html

Reciever
EasiLight RGBW LED Zone Receiver - https://www.wholesaleledlights.co.uk/led-strip-lights/led-controllers/additional-rgb-led-zone-receiver-13637.html

LED Tape
https://www.wholesaleledlights.co.uk/led-strip-lights/led-tape/rgbw-led-strip-lights-60-x-5050-smds-14-4w-p-m-1020lm.html

Main run:
240V AC ----> 240-12V Driver/Power Supply --->120W Reciever (x2) ---> LED Strips (x3 runs each approx 4.5m)

There are 2 receivers as each LED run will draw up to 58W at full brightness

Switch run:
Theres also the switch which operates via RF to the Receivers which is as below:

240V AC ---> Switch (has internal transformer)

Questions:
  1. Could this be wired into the lighting circuit (protected by the 6A fuse) or do I need to to this from the mains as planned (16A fuse - its not a ring main and there are separate breakers for each of the top floor rooms, each at 16A). On this route there are 8 double sockets, none of which will be powering anything dramatic (TV/computer, that kind of stuff). I only ask as it will be much easier to access the above ceiling space if transformers ever need replacing.
  2. Can these power supplies and RF receivers be wired into backboxes/pattress boxes with faceplates or simply plastered into wall or will this damage them/reduce signal significantly. Again, would rather keep them from being under the floor in case they ever need replacing and don't want to pull up carpets e.t.c. So either in wall or above ceiling preferable (can access from loft space)
Many thanks for any input or advice
 
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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Whilst I appreciate that is always good advice, perhaps if you could imagine I would like try this myself and the whole point of asking is to learn and not do silly things, this would be a more helpful conversation
 

James

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Dear all - I am looking to install some LED strip lighting (it will be wall-mounted near the ceiling, behind some uplight coving). The plan is to pull the power from the mains under the floor and chase the cabling into the wall (brick wall, no studs), to then be cemented/plastered/polyfillered) in, which emerges at ceiling level.

Here are the proposed specs and units (3 runs all going back to the receivers to keep each length <5m). The tape is a 12V, RGBW 14.4W/m with 60LEDS per section. There are no extra cuts as the tape can wrap around the wall due to them being wall mounted facing internally, and not upward

Power Supply
https://www.wholesaleledlights.co.uk/led-strip-lights/led-power-supplies/240w-led-driver.html

Reciever
EasiLight RGBW LED Zone Receiver - https://www.wholesaleledlights.co.uk/led-strip-lights/led-controllers/additional-rgb-led-zone-receiver-13637.html

LED Tape
https://www.wholesaleledlights.co.uk/led-strip-lights/led-tape/rgbw-led-strip-lights-60-x-5050-smds-14-4w-p-m-1020lm.html

Main run:
240V AC ----> 240-12V Driver/Power Supply --->120W Reciever (x2) ---> LED Strips (x3 runs each approx 4.5m)

There are 2 receivers as each LED run will draw up to 58W at full brightness

Switch run:
Theres also the switch which operates via RF to the Receivers which is as below:

240V AC ---> Switch (has internal transformer)

Questions:
  1. Could this be wired into the lighting circuit (protected by the 6A fuse) or do I need to to this from the mains as planned (16A fuse - its not a ring main and there are separate breakers for each of the top floor rooms, each at 16A). On this route there are 8 double sockets, none of which will be powering anything dramatic (TV/computer, that kind of stuff). I only ask as it will be much easier to access the above ceiling space if transformers ever need replacing.
  2. Can these power supplies and RF receivers be wired into backboxes/pattress boxes with faceplates or simply plastered into wall or will this damage them/reduce signal significantly. Again, would rather keep them from being under the floor in case they ever need replacing and don't want to pull up carpets e.t.c. So either in wall or above ceiling preferable (can access from loft space)
Many thanks for any input or advice
That power supply looks a bit of a worry to me,
IP20 with fan cooling, will need to be in an enclosure that keeps the dust out of it that can be accessed every now and then to clean it.

I wouldn't fit that under floor or in a loft without considering how you will enclose it and clean it.

you could probably sink some 2 gang pattresses in and cover with a blank plate for the receiver units.

I think you would do well to ask a local spark to quote, even if you want to do a lot of the work yourself, just be honest with them and ask him/her to suggest the best locations for the units.
they may well be pleased that you are going to do all the chasing and fitting of it.
 
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Thanks for the advice - might I ask where you would consider a more appropriate place (hidden from view) There really isn't anywhere else for it to reasonably go without it being visible. As for enclosures, I'm sure there are a variety on the market if you have any advice on that
 

James

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Thanks for the advice - might I ask where you would consider a more appropriate place (hidden from view) There really isn't anywhere else for it to reasonably go without it being visible. As for enclosures, I'm sure there are a variety on the market if you have any advice on that
Unfortunately, the link you have posted has no product instruction leaflet available for download, this will tell you the requirements for mounting. i.e free air flow, clear distance required for heat dispertion etc.
mirrorstone lighting have nothing useful on there web site to let you know these details.
they do however have a technical advice phone number.
 
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  • #7
I have sent their support team an email to enquire about an appropriate enclosure and to get the manual/leaflet if they have one. If they don't reply I will call when I off work.

Are there any other aspects you think need further thought?
Many thanks for the input regardless
 

GBDamo

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Thanks for the advice - might I ask where you would consider a more appropriate place (hidden from view) There really isn't anywhere else for it to reasonably go without it being visible. As for enclosures, I'm sure there are a variety on the market if you have any advice on that
If it's fan cooled also think of noise.

It may not deliver the desired results if your romantic mood lighting is humming away in the background while you're trying to get amorous Mrs Zsico.
 

Midwest

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I'd find another supplier. Fan cooled driver??
 

Charlie_

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24v instead of 12v would be better, reduced current and longer runs..
Have a look at the aurora range of products..the type you have posted is poor quality..
Do you have existing downlights in the ceiling or even better ceiling speakers?
How much depth/room is inside the coving?
 
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  • #11
Does anyone have any recommendations for an alternate power supply (perhaps IP65 then?) for 240W 12V 20A

There are existing downlights (halogens with transformers for each) x6 so the LED tape is just for a bit of ambience. They do not need to be particularly high quality. The coving will be 100 x 100 approx

= XPS Polystyrene Uplight COVING LED Lighting cornice BFS12 SIZE 100mm x 80mm = | eBay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XPS-Polystyrene-Uplight-COVING-LED-Lighting-cornice-BFS12-SIZE-100mm-x-80mm-/283064949608

Not exactly that, may go for a plaster fitted one
 

Charlie_

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Go on the aurora website and have a look at their products..
Utilise the downlight holes to access the ceiling void.. locate drivers in those areas.. fish cable from there over to where the coving is
 
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  • #13
(Or alternatively perhaps a small vent diffuser to allow air into the underfloor space). I got a reply from the manufacturer regarding its placement as well as below:

"Dust does not normally pose an issue with the transformer, I have had many customers who have fitted the transformers in similar environments."
 

davesparks

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Whilst I appreciate that is always good advice, perhaps if you could imagine I would like try this myself and the whole point of asking is to learn and not do silly things, this would be a more helpful conversation
I don't see any reason why you shouldn't install the coving, led tape, and controllers but would recommend getting an electrician to install the mains supply for the system.
You could easily have a suitable socket outlet installed in the loft if the controllers are going up there.
 

john watts

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All seems well on the installation side and products but..

A couple of things I would add are,
Yes the power supply is open terminal and designed for a locked racking system. So if it is installed in a home you would need a cover / vented box, enclosure you can google transformer enclosure for led drivers as their are some ready available.
You would be better off buying an enclosed power supply which are again readily available and cheaper combined to both options + always look for 5 year warranty with the power supplies, like the Meanwell brands etc as if your LEDs last 10 years but your power supply only lasts one then it's a nitghtmare to keep swapping them.

RF can work from within a stud wall , ceiling etc etc, I have seen this many times and if the controller / receiver are of good quality they can still work up to 20m away from each other even behind a wall.
The only thing I would recommend there is I would always advise to have access to all items. As if you permanently plaster the receivers in, if it comes to a fault (which sods law always happens when no access) you will be in a lot of hassle.

You can get larger control systems out there, eg, one power supply, one receiver to run all 15m (ish) LED strip, but that's another question entirely.

Anything else , please ask away
 

john watts

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All seems well on the installation side and products but..

A couple of things I would add are,
Yes the power supply is open terminal and designed for a locked racking system. So if it is installed in a home you would need a cover / vented box, enclosure you can google transformer enclosure for led drivers as their are some ready available.
You would be better off buying an enclosed power supply which are again readily available and cheaper combined to both options + always look for 5 year warranty with the power supplies, like the Meanwell brands etc as if your LEDs last 10 years but your power supply only lasts one then it's a nitghtmare to keep swapping them.

RF can work from within a stud wall , ceiling etc etc, I have seen this many times and if the controller / receiver are of good quality they can still work up to 20m away from each other even behind a wall.
The only thing I would recommend there is I would always advise to have access to all items. As if you permanently plaster the receivers in, if it comes to a fault (which sods law always happens when no access) you will be in a lot of hassle.

You can get larger control systems out there, eg, one power supply, one receiver to run all 15m (ish) LED strip, but that's another question entirely.

Anything else , please ask away

LED-transformer-enclosure.png

EN-200-12_photo.png
 
As mentioned above, you would be better going with 24v, or using 2 smaller 12v PSUs. 20A is quite a large current on the 12v side, and the strip cannot safely handle this current. So you would need to add fuses for each strip.

The loft is probably the most suitable location for accessability, although remember that it will get very warm up there in the summer, which could cause the PSUs to overheat/reduce their lifespan.
 

john watts

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Im not sure what you mean by saying the 20amp is not safe on the 12v side?
The only thing to make sure when using a 20amp power supply is that you use the correct thickness cable, eg.1.5mm or whatever thickness it must be (you can check using and online calulator).
There are many power supplies that are rated higher than 20amp.
The 20amp at 12v is a 240w power supply which are very standard and widely accessable. The LED strip draws the power from the power supply not the other way round. So if you have 50w of LED strip on a 240w power supply the LED strip will draw the 50w from the power supply. Therefore not a constant 240w. Maybe i'm misunderstanding something? But ive never heard any of our electrician customers add fuses to LED strips for this very standard project requirement.
 
Im not sure what you mean by saying the 20amp is not safe on the 12v side?
The only thing to make sure when using a 20amp power supply is that you use the correct thickness cable, eg.1.5mm or whatever thickness it must be (you can check using and online calulator).
There are many power supplies that are rated higher than 20amp.
The 20amp at 12v is a 240w power supply which are very standard and widely accessable. The LED strip draws the power from the power supply not the other way round. So if you have 50w of LED strip on a 240w power supply the LED strip will draw the 50w from the power supply. Therefore not a constant 240w. Maybe i'm misunderstanding something? But ive never heard any of our electrician customers add fuses to LED strips for this very standard project requirement.
The problem with having such a large power supply is if you get a short on the strip. The PCB tracks are nowhere near the 2.5mm you would probably need to safely carry that current. And due to the resistance of those tracks, a short wont always allow a high enough fault current to trigger the power supply overcurrent protection. So you could end up with 15A flowing through the strip, which can heat it enough to cause a fire. Also, its not easy to attach a cable that thick to the strip, so people tend to wire in in much thinner cable.
 

john watts

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The problem with having such a large power supply is if you get a short on the strip. The PCB tracks are nowhere near the 2.5mm you would probably need to safely carry that current. And due to the resistance of those tracks, a short wont always allow a high enough fault current to trigger the power supply overcurrent protection. So you could end up with 15A flowing through the strip, which can heat it enough to cause a fire. Also, its not easy to attach a cable that thick to the strip, so people tend to wire in in much thinner cable.
I have to disagree. As mentioned before all 20amps are not being forced from the power supply to the strip. The strip is drawing what power it needs from the power supply. So if this strip is only 3amps it draws that from the power supply. If the strip has a short circuit it will react the same on any power supply.
It you have 3amps worth of strip on a 3amp or 20amp power supply it doesn't affect the strip it just draws the 3amps.
The main thing that maybe you are thinking is that the whole 20amps is going to one strip, this wouldnt be the case, as how the stips would be wired is in parralel, so 4 x say 5amp strips wired into one receiver and one 20amp power supply.
 
I have to disagree. As mentioned before all 20amps are not being forced from the power supply to the strip. The strip is drawing what power it needs from the power supply. So if this strip is only 3amps it draws that from the power supply. If the strip has a short circuit it will react the same on any power supply.
It you have 3amps worth of strip on a 3amp or 20amp power supply it doesn't affect the strip it just draws the 3amps.
The main thing that maybe you are thinking is that the whole 20amps is going to one strip, this wouldnt be the case, as how the stips would be wired is in parralel, so 4 x say 5amp strips wired into one receiver and one 20amp power supply.
The strips would only draw 3amps under normal conditions, but a short circuit would behave in the same way as on any circuit, causing the resistance of the circuit to decrease and the current to increase.

Its exactly the same as a lighting circuit in your house. You could supply it from a 400A fuse and it would only draw an amp or 2 at most. But you need an OCPD to protect against a fault.
 

davesparks

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Im not sure what you mean by saying the 20amp is not safe on the 12v side?
So if you have 50w of LED strip on a 240w power supply the LED strip will draw the 50w from the power supply. Therefore not a constant 240w. Maybe i'm misunderstanding something? But ive never heard any of our electrician customers add fuses to LED strips for this very standard project requirement.
An unused supply with the capacity to deliver 20A is dangerous as it can deliver more current than an LED strip can safely handle.
If a short circuit were to occur at the far end of the strip then this could allow 20A to flow through the strip which is likely only designed to have around 3A flow through it, this prevents a risk of fire.
Not fusing LED loads fed from power supplies of this size is madness and very bad practice.
 

john watts

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An unused supply with the capacity to deliver 20A is dangerous as it can deliver more current than an LED strip can safely handle.
If a short circuit were to occur at the far end of the strip then this could allow 20A to flow through the strip which is likely only designed to have around 3A flow through it, this prevents a risk of fire.
Not fusing LED loads fed from power supplies of this size is madness and very bad practice.
Thanks for the replies,
How about your thoughts on the project in the thread which is the actual common use.
So for example,
A 20amp power supply to power 4 x 5 amp led strip lengths ( 4 strips wired in parralel). Are you saying if one of the 5amp strips had a short circuit it would be receiving 20amps even though 15 amps are being used by the the other strips?
 

James

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Thanks for the replies,
How about your thoughts on the project in the thread which is the actual common use.
So for example,
A 20amp power supply to power 4 x 5 amp led strip lengths ( 4 strips wired in parralel). Are you saying if one of the 5amp strips had a short circuit it would be receiving 20amps even though 15 amps are being used by the the other strips?
It would probably use close to 20A
A short will have a low resistance compared to the other loads and draw far more current
 

john watts

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It would probably use close to 20A
A short will have a low resistance compared to the other loads and draw far more current
Just looking into this and the power supplies we have used have short circuit protection. Maybe this is why ive never heard of this being an issue
See image:49902
 

davesparks

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Thanks for the replies,
How about your thoughts on the project in the thread which is the actual common use.
So for example,
A 20amp power supply to power 4 x 5 amp led strip lengths ( 4 strips wired in parralel). Are you saying if one of the 5amp strips had a short circuit it would be receiving 20amps even though 15 amps are being used by the the other strips?
It all depends on exactly how the power supply behaves in this situation, the resistance of the fault etc etc.
This is obviously very simplified and assuming the power supply has an output limited/fixed at 20A, but the majority of the 20A will flow via the fault in accordance with the bahaviour of resistances in parallel. Some current will continue to flow via the other loads, but most will flow through the fault.
I've installed a lot of LED strip and use one driver per strip or fuse each strip.
If I'm feeding multiple LED loads from one driver I usually fit it in a rittal box with fused din terminals to feed each load.
 

davesparks

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Just looking into this and the power supplies we have used have short circuit protection. Maybe this is why ive never heard of this being an issue
See image:View attachment 49902
That will only work if the short is a dead short, if the fault has some impedance the result will still be fire.
A elv supply such of this should be treated the same as at any other voltage as far as the provision of ocpds appropriate to the load is concerned.
 

James

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Just looking into this and the power supplies we have used have short circuit protection. Maybe this is why ive never heard of this being an issue
See image:View attachment 49902
It doesn’t state how it deals with over current or short circuit protection.
I.e. is it current limiting and reducing the voltage to cap at 20A
Or a shutdown of psu until power cycled?
Or another method?

If it is capable of providing 20A then every part of the circuit after that point needs to be able to deal with carrying 20A without overheating.
 
As far as I know these PSUs just turn off their output if the load goes over 20 amps. A short at the end of a strip wont always exceed that current and so the PSU may well be seeing a load of 18 amps for example, which wont activate its protection. Someone made a youtube video where they measured the resistance of a 5m length of strip and the potential short circuit current if you shorted the end furthest from the PSU. This demonstrated on most strips that a high enough current to cause oveeheating/fire could be drawn, but not high enough to trip the PSU. I cant remember the exact values they used.

If, as in your example, you are running 4 strips from one 20A power supply, you can feed each one via a 5A fuse to protect them.
 
If it is capable of providing 20A then every part of the circuit after that point needs to be able to deal with carrying 20A without overheating.
Exactly, as in any other circuit design. You need to make sure the circuit (to the end of the strip) has a low enough impedance to activate the protective device (be that fuse or overload protection in the psu) before the strip catches fire.
 

Charlie_

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Arms
hi guys , can anyone advice me how many diode i should use for fitting my led stip in my car , picture attachedView attachment 49932
Hi
I think you should start your own new thread :)
 
D

Deleted member 26818

One of the problems here, is the proposal to conceal some of the wiring in the wall.
LV (230V) wiring will need additional protection:
At a depth greater than 50mm.
Earthed sleeve.
Earthed containment.
Mechanical protection.
Or be run in a prescribed route and provided with RCD protection.

ELV (< 50V ac or 120V dc) will not required additional protection.
 
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  • #36
If anyone is interested, here's some pics:

The power supply remained unchanged (2.5MM fed), but is in an enclosure and i added a 3A fuse to the input cabling. The enclosure also dampened the sound to point it isn't discernible outside the loft space

The 2.5mm cabling is inside the wall (its deeper than 50 and in a proper protective conduit)

Used ScrewFix uplight coving as was vastly cheaper than anything else I found and looks far better than any of the polystyrene options (kind of like a picture rail)

Thanks to everyone for their input and help.
 

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