Lighting with no CPC and installing new CU (Domestic)

[SJD]

I have the ESC’s guide to replacing a CU where the lighting circuits have no CPC, and this says the initial approach should be to persuade the customer to upgrade the circuit to provide CPCs. If that fails, the guide then includes a risk assessment table (at the back), where it is allowed to proceed with the CU replacement if certain conditions are met (like no class 1 fittings, for example).

My question is, in practice, for those out there meeting this situation on a regular basis, what is the typical outcome (assuming the circuit meets insulation test requirements)?

Do you generally persuade the customer to upgrade the circuit (or decline to do the job)?
And if you do upgrade the circuit, do you typically rewire with new T&E, or instead fit a separate CPC and use the existing wiring?
Or are you happy to remove any class 1 fittings, place a warning notice, and proceed with the CU replacement with the existing wiring as is?

I'm thinking of an inhabited property, where costs and disruption are a concern, and all the customer originally wanted was a new CU to replace an old fuse box.

 

[somersetsparks]

I would ensure only class 2 fittings are used and affix said label at CU. On a test, I usually end up fitting pendants if necessary and sticker and passing, most people don't seem that keen on having the circuit rewired for a minor safety gain.

 

[Guest55]

1. never turn down work because of a technicality.
2. replacing t&e is preferable but more expensive than running a seperate earth
3. only agree to fit the CU if they are prepared to replace any existing class 1 fittings to plastic.

 

[DaveyD]

I print off the guide mate. It's there for the customer in print and puts it stronger then we could

 

[Octopus]

I think you need to keep a sensible perspective on this.

Mr Smith has had a BS3036 fuseboard for 25 years but no CPC on his lighting circuit. Is his house and family going to be safer with, or without a dual RCD board whilst leaving the unearthed lights alone? (or RCBO's)

 

[micknew]

Completely agree Murdock.
Makes no sense that you cannot prevent electrocution unless you provide an earth to light fittings.
Crazy so should we ignore that requirement5?

 

[Octopus]

Completely agree Murdock.
Makes no sense that you cannot prevent electrocution unless you provide an earth to light fittings.
Crazy so should we ignore that requirement5?

No, our responsibility is to make homes safer and a new board will do that. If a client wants to leave the lighting without a CPC its OK, IMHO. Metal fittings or not, if they've up for 25 years whats the problem. Regulations are not retrospective.

Rather fit a new board and bonding (leaving the lighting "as is") than walk away and leave a BS3036 board and no bonding.

The people who write up the rules and guidance need to return the to the "coal face" and talk to a few hard pressed home owners.

Tin hat on.

 

[Guitarist]

It's a tough one at times. Usually, the cables I find without a cpc are well and truly past their sell-by date, and the customer is well aware that it's rewire time. Personally, I've not had to run a separate 4mm cpc in to date.
I remember what one of our respected members said a few months ago, and it is so true. Something along the lines of....You are the professional. You tell them what needs doing....

 

[micknew]

Rather fit a new board and bonding (leaving the lighting "as is") than walk away and leave a BS3036 board and no bonding.

Yes, which is exactly what I did on Friday.

 

[SJD]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I hadn’t thought of giving a customer the ESC best practice guide, though maybe it will not be well understood by your average householder, and the tone of it is perhaps not optimal.

For an installation where all the light fittings are pendants, there are no metal back boxes at the switches, and no metal conduit, it seems excessive to propose installing a CPC that doesn’t actually connect to anything exposed, which is the initial approach the ESC advocate. Often though the customer won’t understand the issues enough themselves, and are relying on advice from whoever they ask for quotes.

What about where there are metal back boxes at switches (and exposed metal screws), maybe also connected to unearthed conduit in the walls?

 

[Guitarist]

Thanks for the replies so far.


What about where there are metal back boxes at switches (and exposed metal screws), maybe also connected to unearthed conduit in the walls?

Insulation tape over the screws and 1000v gloves hanging by every switch. Should be nice and safe

 

[SJD]

Re immediate previous post (sorry, didn't quote, clicked wrong button):

Guitarist, I have a customer who currently doesn't have a new CU, and this is one of the reasons - he could not afford the lighting rewire plus the CU install. As Murdoc says, those fittings have been there for ages with no problem, but I had insisted I could not do the CU replacement without rewiring.

 

[Guitarist]

Re immediate previous post (sorry, didn't quote, clicked wrong button):

Guitarist, I have a customer who currently doesn't have a new CU, and this is one of the reasons - he could not afford the lighting rewire plus the CU install. As Murdoc says, those fittings have been there for ages with no problem, but I had insisted I could not do the CU replacement without rewiring.

I agree.
I'm sure that your customer is totally genuine, but it drives me mad when I keep hearing how people can't afford essential electrical work, yet they still have 2 holidays a year and change their car every 3.
I have heard so many sob-stories over the years only to see what's been spent a month later on some luxury, that I simply tell people now what something will cost and if they "can't afford it" then I walk away.

 

[oldtimer]

Yep you cannot force the owner to rewire although you can negate the problem with the warning sticker and class II equipment and yes I know its not perfect but thats the reason they advised this because they knew there was problems in the first place so they had to accomodate this and Guitarist is correct here as I have banged on about this before ie its all about priorities and a new safety fuseboard aint going to happen as I have my holidays to go on and the car needs a deep clean as for not changing a CU by saying you will have to get the lights rewired well thats a non starter as all you can recommend is to get the lights rewired at a later date and that they cannot put class I fittings so I would not refuse to change the DB if the circuit complied as I feel I would be leaving the installation in a lot safer condition.

Yes we want to take a professional approach but there is a fine line when recommendations turn into a plain no

 

[SJD]

Yes we want to take a professional approach but there is a fine line when recommendations turn into a plain no

If there are only class II fittings left, plus warning sticker, then I don't disagree, it would be better to fit a new CU instead of the old fuse board. My specific point is what if there are also metal back boxes with exposed metal screws, and metal conduit from these boxes to the top of the wall (conduit in plaster, not exposed)? A new DB with RCD protection will certainly improve safety, but is this going too far, past this fine line? Or would you still change the DB and leave this as is.

 

[oldtimer]

No if I were that concerned I would buy these switch that have plastic covers on the screw hole but what I am trying to put over and as we all knew you cannot backdate the regs remember the guys who said it was ok to leave a lighting circuit without a cpc inplace as long as class II and warning signs were heeded are not going to declare NO you must get this rewired or we will send in the electrical police just aint going to happen I myself was asked to put up some Class I fitting in a property but said sorry you have no earth at the lights Ahh they said you just want more work out of me nope was the reply I only do small electrical work and repairs rewires ,kitchens, extensions I dont do so I do not get any financial gain saying this to you .

2 weeks later got a text All sorted found someone who was willing to put my lights up and I am surprised you make a living by rejecting work like this.

I replied yes I agree but a least I can sleep at night

 

[somersetsparks]

Most houses from this era have the metal pattressess with plastic lugs, which provide no earth continuity to the pattress, They are a pain as the threads strip incredibly easy. IF it hasn't I beleive placcy 3.5mm screws are available.

 

[Guitarist]

Most houses from this era have the metal pattressess with plastic lugs, which provide no earth continuity to the pattress, They are a pain as the threads strip incredibly easy. IF it hasn't I beleive placcy 3.5mm screws are available.

You are correct, nylon screws are available.

 

[morph]

how does a new board with RCD make the lighting circuit safer ???

 

[somersetsparks]

how does a new board with RCD make the lighting circuit safer ???

If you were to get a shock from toughing a live conductor, and that shock was 30ma or over the rcd would still operate