Linking 2 x Conventional Fire alarm Panels

[Sparkylock]

Hi all,
I`m hoping someone can give advice how the following will work:
I have 1 x C-Tec CFP 4 zone conventional panel i need to link to the existing Surveyor Excel-K 4 zone conventional panel which is in the opposite building. There already is an FP 4-core which is fed from the existing FAP to my new panel as the old FAP was removed due to refurb (make not known). The existing FAP has 2 cores in zone 4 and the other 2 cores in what looks like the Aux. Now here comes the fun part. From research it states that you can link any 2 panels but by just linking the Aux to both panels will not work. Apparently you have to link the zone 4 from the existing panel to the Aux on my panel and then from my panel i connect the other 2 cores to my zone 4 which is then connected to the Aux in the existing panel and then both panels can communicate upon fire ( i wish ). I have done this method and my panels then show a fault on zone 4. The 4-core FP is fine on a IR and continuity test so it`s not the cable. The CFP panel does the smoke heads and the other panel does all the MCPs across 3 units.
Has anybody had this issue before? Not a straight forward system i was expecting having not been in this game for long. Any advice is much appreciated. I have attached pics of the 2 FAPs in question. Thankyou

 

[timhoward]

You have the right idea.
Are you needing either panel to activate the other one, or just a one way link?

It's been a long while since I've done this but here are my memories:

In abstract you are creating a zone with the aux fire relay of the other panel pretending to be a detector.
Supposing zone four of the CFP is the input from the 2nd panel.
At the 2nd panels aux relay:
1 - connect the zone wires to Common and NC.
2 - connect an End-Of-Line device between common and NC. I think it's a capacitor for the CFP system. Then the CFP won't see "fault".
3 - Connect a 460 ohm resistor between Common and NO contacts, to raise the current consumption from negligible to to about 52ma, so when the relay opens this should put the zone into "Fire" assuming it's a 24v system.
At this point a fire condition on the 2nd panel will put the CFP into fire. The 2nd panel will need resetting before the 1st panel can be reset.

4 - If / when you apply the same concept the other way around, so panel 1 puts panel 2 into fire, you end up with with a ring-around condition - panel 1 putting panel 2 into fire, which then puts panel 1 into a second fire condition on the linked zone. Resetting either panel becomes problematic / impossible.
The simple solution is installing a key isolation each end switch with an EOL device so the loop to the "other "panel is out of circuit for reset purposes.
There is a more elegant solution involving a 24v relay and the sounder circuits which I can't quite remember, it might be a delay relay powered by the sounder circuit that disconnects the link during fire...I'd need to draw it out, maybe that can be a future enhancement?!

I hope this helps you with the concept.

 

[timhoward]

I'd also add that a completely different approach which is more in keeping with how I did things towards the end of my time with fire alarms was to replace one panel with an an addressable system and turn the 4 core into a loop. Zone monitors can monitor the conventional zones at the remote building, and a repeater panel can be added there too.
Then you can have one normal system and avoid some of the complexity, albeit for a cost!

 

[Sparkylock]

You have the right idea.
Are you needing either panel to activate the other one, or just a one way link?

It's been a long while since I've done this but here are my memories:

In abstract you are creating a zone with the aux fire relay of the other panel pretending to be a detector.
Supposing zone four of the CFP is the input from the 2nd panel.
At the 2nd panels aux relay:
1 - connect the zone wires to Common and NC.
2 - connect an End-Of-Line device between common and NC. I think it's a capacitor for the CFP system. Then the CFP won't see "fault".
3 - Connect a 460 ohm resistor between Common and NO contacts, to raise the current consumption from negligible to to about 52ma, so when the relay opens this should put the zone into "Fire" assuming it's a 24v system.
At this point a fire condition on the 2nd panel will put the CFP into fire. The 2nd panel will need resetting before the 1st panel can be reset.

4 - If / when you apply the same concept the other way around, so panel 1 puts panel 2 into fire, you end up with with a ring-around condition - panel 1 putting panel 2 into fire, which then puts panel 1 into a second fire condition on the linked zone. Resetting either panel becomes problematic / impossible.
The simple solution is installing a key isolation each end switch with an EOL device so the loop to the "other "panel is out of circuit for reset purposes.
There is a more elegant solution involving a 24v relay and the sounder circuits which I can't quite remember, it might be a delay relay powered by the sounder circuit that disconnects the link during fire...I'd need to draw it out, maybe that can be a future enhancement?!

I hope this helps you with the concept.

Hi Tim,
Many thanks for your reply and advice, seems pretty complex.
The issue i have is that where the CFP panel is located, i have 3 x bells & MCPs which are fed from panel 1 as the landlord wanted to keep these is situe due to the layout of the building. So what i think will be most appropriate is only make my CFP activate the other panel one way when fire is called, that way then if panel 1 goes into fire, only panel 1 needs to be reset and if panel 2 (CFP) goes into fire it will activate panel 1 which would mean that panel 2 needs to be reset before panel 1, is this correct?
I have attached the photos again and labelled them P1 & P2. What would be the correct way to connect the two panels together to work like that instead?

 

[Sparkylock]

You have the right idea.
Are you needing either panel to activate the other one, or just a one way link?

It's been a long while since I've done this but here are my memories:

In abstract you are creating a zone with the aux fire relay of the other panel pretending to be a detector.
Supposing zone four of the CFP is the input from the 2nd panel.
At the 2nd panels aux relay:
1 - connect the zone wires to Common and NC.
2 - connect an End-Of-Line device between common and NC. I think it's a capacitor for the CFP system. Then the CFP won't see "fault".
3 - Connect a 460 ohm resistor between Common and NO contacts, to raise the current consumption from negligible to to about 52ma, so when the relay opens this should put the zone into "Fire" assuming it's a 24v system.
At this point a fire condition on the 2nd panel will put the CFP into fire. The 2nd panel will need resetting before the 1st panel can be reset.

4 - If / when you apply the same concept the other way around, so panel 1 puts panel 2 into fire, you end up with with a ring-around condition - panel 1 putting panel 2 into fire, which then puts panel 1 into a second fire condition on the linked zone. Resetting either panel becomes problematic / impossible.
The simple solution is installing a key isolation each end switch with an EOL device so the loop to the "other "panel is out of circuit for reset purposes.
There is a more elegant solution involving a 24v relay and the sounder circuits which I can't quite remember, it might be a delay relay powered by the sounder circuit that disconnects the link during fire...I'd need to draw it out, maybe that can be a future enhancement?!

I hope this helps you with the concept.

Oh i forgot to mention that i need panel 2 to activate zone 4 on panel 1.
Cheers

 

[timhoward]

Hi @Sparkylock.
The installation manuals for both these panels are available online. Links below.
Both panels are sophisticated enough to avoid using a zone for activation.

As these are safety-critical systems, it's vital that you understand what you are doing and why so I'm not going to design the solution for you, but if you take a look in the manuals: look at the description of the ALT (Alert) input and REM output on the CFP panel, and the "IP1 P", "IP2 S" inputs and "OP2", "REM FR" outputs on the Excel panel.
There are many, many easy ways to make this work in one direction. I'm not trying to be nasty but if the manuals don't make it clear then you should get some on-site help with this task.

In general I'd be wanting to see a copy of the fire risk assessment for the building, check what the fire alarms need to do, and then consider the best way to achieve that. I don't trust landlords perceived requirements! In particular, you should consider if the link needs fault detection to meet the FRA's requirements.

https://www.safefiredirect.co.uk/Downloads/Public/CFP%20Engineering%20Manual.pdf

https://fireandelectrical.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Excel-Installation-Manual.pdf

 

[Sparkylock]

Hi @Sparkylock.
The installation manuals for both these panels are available online. Links below.
Both panels are sophisticated enough to avoid using a zone for activation.

As these are safety-critical systems, it's vital that you understand what you are doing and why so I'm not going to design the solution for you, but if you take a look in the manuals: look at the description of the ALT (Alert) input and REM output on the CFP panel, and the "IP1 P", "IP2 S" inputs and "OP2", "REM FR" outputs on the Excel panel.
There are many, many easy ways to make this work in one direction. I'm not trying to be nasty but if the manuals don't make it clear then you should get some on-site help with this task.

In general I'd be wanting to see a copy of the fire risk assessment for the building, check what the fire alarms need to do, and then consider the best way to achieve that. I don't trust landlords perceived requirements! In particular, you should consider if the link needs fault detection to meet the FRA's requirements.

https://www.safefiredirect.co.uk/Downloads/Public/CFP%20Engineering%20Manual.pdf

https://fireandelectrical.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Excel-Installation-Manual.pdf

Thanks Tim for your advice. I will get it sorted.