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Discuss Max ZS for BS 3871's in the Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification area at ElectriciansForums.net

J

jimmer

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Does anybody know where i can find the max 100% ZS values for Type 1,2 and 3 BS 3871 mcbs? The OSG only has the 80% ones and just wondered if there was anywhere that had the 100% one so i dont have to re-calculate it.
Any help much appreciated
 
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S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
The max permissable values are in BS7671.
 

Des 56

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Arms
Esteemed
The old 3871 are superceded by the 60898 So look them up on page 49 of the big red book and use the 60898 values
A B and C which equate to 1,2 and 3 of the 3871
 
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J

jimmer

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
The old 3871 are superceded by the 60898 So look them up on page 49 of the big red book and use the 60898 values
A B and C which equate to 1,2 and 3 of the 3871
So values of type 1,2 and 3 3871 are now the same as 60898 type b,c, d?
 

Des 56

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Arms
Esteemed
So values of type 1,2 and 3 3871 are now the same as 60898 type b,c, d?

No they are obsolete breakers and should be replaced with 60898s
I was saying to use the values of the 60898 instead
If you want the exact values then look at paqge 114 of guidance note 3
 
jimmer just times the 80% by 1.2 to get 100%

des you can still buy 3871 mcbs crabtree c50 memshield 1 and others
why do you say they should be replaced with 60898?
 

Des 56

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Arms
Esteemed
jimmer just times the 80% by 1.2 to get 100%

des you can still buy 3871 mcbs crabtree c50 memshield 1 and others
why do you say they should be replaced with 60898?

Maybe I am jumping the gun stating they should be replaced,perhaps advise to be replaced, would have been a better phrase
They are not listed in the 17th and it is arguable whether they are compliant or not,even though they are still available
I have pasted a bit of info that relates to this,which helps explain my replies

BS3871, which specified the miniature circuit breakers Types 1 to 4 was withdrawn in 1994 and has been replaced with BS EN 60898:1991 (EN stands for "European norm"), although it is possible that circuit breakers to the old standard will still be on sale for five years from its withdrawal. In due course, it is intended that only types B, C and D will be available, although it will be many years before the older types cease to be used. Short circuit ratings for the newer types will be a minimum of 3 kA and may be as high as 25 kA - the older types had short circuit ratings which were rarely higher than 9 kA.

I dont think it is a safety issue,more of an observation that they are old hat and updated devices would be preferable
regards Des
 
S

sixfingers

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
Hi Des

Have copy of GN3 and page 114 does not seem to have values on? Copy of GN3 is 2008s!
 

scotsparky

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Arms
sixfinger there is a great table of Bs3871 &bsen60898 Mcb Max Zs readings in the OSG near the back. Havent got the book on me at mo but its there.
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
Des,

Not wanting to split hairs, but nowhere in that info does it say that 60898's are preferred over 3871's.

I know they are now becoming extinct, but on an existing install, surely if all circuit criteria are met then there should be no reason why they would not comply?
 

Des 56

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Arms
Esteemed
Des,

Not wanting to split hairs, but nowhere in that info does it say that 60898's are preferred over 3871's.

I know they are now becoming extinct, but on an existing install, surely if all circuit criteria are met then there should be no reason why they would not comply?
I dont disagree with your statement
I am making an opnion (in a poor way may I say)that when something becomes obsolete, then upgrading to the present day standard, could be advised ,otherwise we have to keep reference to information of those older standards for ever and a day
Confirmation of this, was the request in the opening post, for the zs of an unlisted obsolete BS mcb
I say it is arguable whether they are compliant because compliance may be difficult to confirm if they are not referenced

I think the preference of 60898s over 3871s is demonstrated by their ommision from the regs


By the way
My apologies for the page reference
The guidance note 3 page 114 was for my 2006 print (16th ed)
 
S

Spudnik

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
Understood.:)
 

ian.settle1

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Mentor
Arms
No they are obsolete breakers and should be replaced with 60898s
I was saying to use the values of the 60898 instead
If you want the exact values then look at paqge 114 of guidance note 3

You can not use the values of 60898 as the maximum tripping current was different for 3871 types thus a different max Zs.

just calculate the max Zs - 230/max current for breaker as it is found for 60898 MCB's

eg 60898 type B mcb should trip between 3-5 times mcb rating thus for 6A type B 230/30=7.666 as per regs

thus a 3871 type 1( trips between 5-7 times I think) - For 6A mcb type 1 230/42=5.4
 
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T

thesonandheir

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
Hi guys, James here with first post!


Does anyone know the max permitted Zs for a 32A type 4 3871 mcb?

Many thanks to anyone who can help, cheers


James.
 

scotsparky

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Arms
sixfinger there is a great table of Bs3871 &bsen60898 Mcb Max Zs readings in the OSG near the back. Havent got the book on me at mo but its there.

Found it on Page 103
 
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C

coxy

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
Hi I have a 15th edition of the regs which gives disconnection times - The question I think is why are these times not in the 17th edition ?? even as a suplument ?? I have always used the ratings from the 15th edition of the regs ??
 

ian.settle1

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Mentor
Arms
Hi I have a 15th edition of the regs which gives disconnection times - The question I think is why are these times not in the 17th edition ?? even as a suplument ?? I have always used the ratings from the 15th edition of the regs ??

No you can not use the 15th or 16th values as these are based on the voltage being 240v and not 230v as is now used under harmonisation.
 
G

Graeme Harrold

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
jimmer just times the 80% by 1.2 to get 100%

des you can still buy 3871 mcbs crabtree c50 memshield 1 and others
why do you say they should be replaced with 60898?
You need to multiply the 80% value by 1.25 to get a more accurate 100% value
 
D

davos010

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
There is a table on the inside page of the NICEIC certificates stating all the max Zs ratings for 3871's 88's 1361's 1362's and 3036's.
 

scotsparky

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Arms
There is a grweat table in the current OSG with 3871,and 60898 MC Max ZS in it.
 
P

patchman21

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
just googled this to check and

17th Edition Maximum Ze & Zs Values

states "BS7671 does not give maximum Zs values for BS 3871 mcb's"

If you have the disconnection time, device manufacturer (if not i can use generic) and rating I can use my software (single cable) to find the values.

Hi guys, James here with first post!


Does anyone know the max permitted Zs for a 32A type 4 3871 mcb?

Many thanks to anyone who can help, cheers


James.

5s = 1.0034
0.4s = 0.5134

Taken from Single Cable 17th eddition generic values
 
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