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Discuss MCB's - What fuses are used? in the Industrial Electrician Talk area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Freedo

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Can someone tell me this is all correct for MCB's...

5/6A - Lighting circuits (I take it this would be for a outside light or something similar on it's own)
15/16A - Storage/immersion heater
20A - Radial power circuit (is 20A still used after 2005? If not what's in place?)
30/32A - Ring main circuit
40A - Cooker/Shower (is 40A still used after 2005? If not what's in place?) Also with anything such as a cooker which is wired directly to the consumer unit. Does it still need a FCU if it's fused on it's own at the consumer unit?

As you can tell I'm still learning and have a long way to go to become an Domestic sparky. Just learning the basics before going ahead with TradeSkills4U. :eek:

If someone can answer these questions it'll be much appreciated! Thanks...
 
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DadofTwo

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  • #2
5/6A - Lighting circuits (I take it this would be for a outside light or something similar on it's own)
Lighting circuits in general, not just restricted to lights on their own. Circuit shouldn't really have a load of over 1200w.


15/16A - Storage/immersion heater
or a radial in 2.5mm cable.


20A - Radial power circuit (is 20A still used after 2005? If not what's in place?)
Yes, radial in 4mm cable


30/32A - Ring main circuit
Yes

40A - Cooker/Shower (is 40A still used after 2005? If not what's in place?) Also with anything such as a cooker which is wired directly to the consumer unit. Does it still need a FCU if it's fused on it's own at the consumer unit?
Or Higher still depending on the rating of the appliance. For a cooker you don't need a FCU but you do need a switch within 1m of the cooker to allow easy and obvious means of isolation.


Just remember that the MCB is there to protect the cable so the MCB used depends on the application and the installation.
 
F

Freedo

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
Excellent, thanks for that DadofTwo...

Also can you tell me how to work out what sized wire you need for ring main, radial, etc. Is their a formula to work this out?
 
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DadofTwo

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  • #4
IEE on site guide. Your best friend.

IEE ON-SITE GUIDE BS 7671:2001 2004 WIRING REG 16th ED on eBay, also, Non-Fiction Books, Books, Comics Magazines (end time 06-Apr-08 17:51:05 BST)

There are a number of factors to take into account such as length of cable and de-rating factors.

Generally a ring should always be 2.5mm with a 32a breaker as it's restricted to a floor area of 100m2 and a max run of 83m of cable per ring (I think that's correct). It's other appliances such as showers, cookers / ovens / hobs etc that involve variations to the size of cable required depending on numerous factors.
 
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Shakey

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  • #5
Excellent, thanks for that DadofTwo...

Also can you tell me how to work out what sized wire you need for ring main, radial, etc. Is their a formula to work this out?
Freedo

you are trying to run before you can walk

I didnt answer your first question because i didnt want you to know the answer

and i didnt want you to know the answer, because thats 'B&Q' electrics

"yeah mate, lighting is 6A"

there is so much more to learn, and you need to know the WHY behind the answers, not just the answers

so, wait till you've done your course

learn what you need to know

THEN come back and clarify anything you are not sure about

i personally hate the style of sparking that says "cookers are showers are on 40A MCB's":mad:

They maybe - and they maybe not

so go away and learn why;)
 
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EasyFox

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Spot on Shakey I didnt answer for the same reason.

I know I shouldnt tar all with the same brush but I'm getting a tad frustrated at these people undertaking the quick & dare I say it 5 day wonder course's & then asking questions such as Freedo's but beleving they are fully paid up trained domestic sparks when they pass :( , the sooner the powers that be clamp down the better.........

Then again I have picked up some remedial work after poor work undertaken by a local kitchen fitter whos apparently registered via napit & did a 5day intensive course.
He extended ring fitted cupboards & tested ring & left. I got a call from customer stating "i'm getting a small shock off the cooker since the fitter did some work can you come and check it"
Unplugged cooker (temp fitted via extension lead, tested lead & cooker all ok) & tested ring......oh yes O/C on cpc & 0.00 IR traced fault to big f***ing screw through T/E nicking the neutral & severing the cpc.
Dug out the damaged cable only to find it wrapped in insulation tape under new filler?
Customer called the fitter "yes I did slightly damage a cable but I tested the ring by meggering after putting the tape around the damaged section" customer passed the phone to me so I asked him if the result change when he put the screw back into the hole & he put the phone down on me.....what a plum:rolleyes:
I got the rest of the electrical work & the kitchen bod has been banned from the house:D


Dadoftwo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedo
20A - Radial power circuit (is 20A still used after 2005? If not what's in place?)

Yes, radial in 4mm cable
Or 2.5mm could be used ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedo
30/32A - Ring main circuit

Yes
Or a 4mm radial

For a cooker you don't need a FCU but you do need a switch within 1m of the cooker
Think you'll find it's with in 2 meters.
 
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wayne

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
B&Q electricians should be encouraged to make fertiliser bombs in their garden sheds and leave the sparkying to someone else
 
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rumrunner

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
Spot on Shakey I didnt answer for the same reason.

I know I shouldnt tar all with the same brush but I'm getting a tad frustrated at these people undertaking the quick & dare I say it 5 day wonder course's & then asking questions such as Freedo's but beleving they are fully paid up trained domestic sparks when they pass :( , the sooner the powers that be clamp down the better.........

Then again I have picked up some remedial work after poor work undertaken by a local kitchen fitter whos apparently registered via napit & did a 5day intensive course.
He extended ring fitted cupboards & tested ring & left. I got a call from customer stating "i'm getting a small shock off the cooker since the fitter did some work can you come and check it"
Unplugged cooker (temp fitted via extension lead, tested lead & cooker all ok) & tested ring......oh yes O/C on cpc & 0.00 IR traced fault to big f***ing screw through T/E nicking the neutral & severing the cpc.
Dug out the damaged cable only to find it wrapped in insulation tape under new filler?
Customer called the fitter "yes I did slightly damage a cable but I tested the ring by meggering after putting the tape around the damaged section" customer passed the phone to me so I asked him if the result change when he put the screw back into the hole & he put the phone down on me.....what a plum:rolleyes:
I got the rest of the electrical work & the kitchen bod has been banned from the house:D


Hi
Its quite a common thing for kitchen fitters to do this ,its a trick they use so the customer has to get a qualified sparks in ,to certify the job, its just a scam ,my mate told me.the company he worked for encouraged the fitters to do it:confused:

its there way of offering the electrical work on the cheap,:mad:
 
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  • #9
I know im only a new member to the business but somethings really need to change. ive always felt that some of card needs to be issued to qualified sparks that go through college the decent way, and get the full knowledge. That is the only way of cutting these leaches out of our business, and also have trade cards, so only people with qualifications etc can buy materials such as cable etc etc etc because no matter what you will always see some average jo going to B&Q etc and buyin a 17way split load board and some cable!!!
 
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Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
I know im only a new member to the business but somethings really need to change. ive always felt that some of card needs to be issued to qualified sparks that go through college the decent way, and get the full knowledge. That is the only way of cutting these leaches out of our business, and also have trade cards, so only people with qualifications etc can buy materials such as cable etc etc etc because no matter what you will always see some average jo going to B&Q etc and buyin a 17way split load board and some cable!!!
trouble is how do you define 'qualified sparks', 'go through college' and 'full knowledge'

as you may see through my posts, I am reasonably competent in the field of electrical installations, as I am in many facets of electrical engineering

I have spent a number of years going through college - to quite a high level (all electrical quals)

HOWEVER, i dont have 2330, 236 or any level 3 installation qualifiaction - I started out as what could be described as an electrical technician, and moved accross to the installetion world over a number of years

so i guess i am not a 'qualified sparks' in many peoples eyes (including NICEIC, NAPIT etc)

but there are a number of 'qualified sparks' on this site who have stated that they have benefited from my knowledge:confused:

so yeah, i guess this business does need shaking up - i would propose an 'equivalence exam' where guys like me could prove our knowledge - I am buggered if i am sitting in college again to get qualified in a subject that i already teach!!!:mad::mad:
 
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rumrunner

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  • #11
Hi
Shakey i agree with you.my qualifications are out of date ,i even tried the 16 edition course,but wasnt interested ,found it all to much to get my head around,i dont need it in the type of work i do ,and i got lazy ,ive 30 years experiance ,mainly industrial stuff ,factory maintenance etc ,and ive got a card saying im an approved sparks ,ive also got my original certificates,c&g 236 pt 1&2,and another for switchgear and control panels,i do quite a bit of hydraulic and pneumatic work ,and im not qualified in that either ,and i couldnt care less about any of this qualification stuff ,i am an electrician and anyone who has ever had the missfortune of working with me will tell you so ,this might not satisfy the niceic ,but im a selfish b and as long as im happy ,i dont care ,the only way i will kill anyone is if im neglegent to the point of stupidity,im not and if i do a job IM happy with then sod anyone else
i must say to other electricians this is not the best attitude to have ,get qualified ,im different ,i do what i like,when i like, its just the way it is
and Davy ,next time you turn up in a food factory with cow **** all over your overalls,like you said, its experiance they are paying for not your certificates
atvbitwww
 
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wayne

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
shakey ,wouldn't your level of quali be recognized by the jib after all they do say nvq3 or similar i know you'd rather put your nuts in a vice than talk about the jib ,but this issue is about a national recognized qualification scheme not pay
 
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Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
shakey ,wouldn't your level of quali be recognized by the jib after all they do say nvq3 or similar i know you'd rather put your nuts in a vice than talk about the jib ,but this issue is about a national recognized qualification scheme not pay
No Wayne, i can get an ECS card as an 'associated trade', but i cant get a JIB card

i've got an ONC Electrical Engineering, and NVQ 3 electrical engineering (but because they are not 'installation' quals they dont count

i've got a HNC & HND in Mechatronics - they dont count

i've got a C&G Licentiateship in Electrical Engineering - doesnt count

got 16 & 17th edition, 2391, 2377 etc but no Level 3 installation qual to back them up

got a C&G in domestic installations (about the same as the EAL course) but thats not Level 3

the fact that i have been installaing industrial electrics for the best part of 25 years, and also test and inspecting mobile and static installations for most of it means little

the only way i could 'progress' in the installation world is to go and do the 2330 - no freekin way - i have taught domestic installers, 16 & 17 th edition, 2377, 2391 and 2392, and also spent a number of years teaching electrical techicians up to ONC level - I am confident i could also teach the 2330 if i needed to (I have seen the sylabus -and theres nowt in there that i havent taught before)

I could condifently go toe-to-toe with anyone on this site (and i dont mean that to sound arrogant)

but to the powers that be? I am not a 'sparks'

stuff 'em:mad::mad:
 
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wayne

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  • #14
ive had same experience in the past. Experienced but one qualification short of an approval.
 
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