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Evening chaps
I’m first fixing a new build this week large high spec 4 bed house.
The builder would like multiple bt points throughout the house what’s my best way of doing this as I’ve not done a lot of it.
Should I make one the main one then daisy chain off the rest like a radial?
 

telectrix

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1st one is master, usually installed by BT. then just daisy chain slaves from there. you should not have more than 4 slaves from a master.
 

mattg4321

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High spec?
Surely you’d be running Cat6 if so and forget the 3 pair.
It can be used for any number of purposes then.
 
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  • #4
1st one is master, usually installed by BT. then just daisy chain slaves from there. you should not have more than 4 slaves from a master.
Hi, there is 4 in total on the plans two in front room one in main bed and one in family room, how will I know which is to be the master? Would I be installing the master one?
 

telectrix

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Hi, there is 4 in total on the plans two in front room one in main bed and one in family room, how will I know which is to be the master? Would I be installing the master one?
no the master is installed by BT, if you had read my earlier post.
 
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  • #6
no the master is installed by BT, if you had read my earlier post.
I did read your earlier post.
im assuming bt wont have installed the master by the time I arrive so how do I go about wiring the ones on the plans do I run the cables back to one I assume will be the master socket?
 

telectrix

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I did read your earlier post.
im assuming bt wont have installed the master by the time I arrive so how do I go about wiring the ones on the plans do I run the cables back to one I assume will be the master socket?
i would think so. you only need to wire pins 2 and 5. leave cable at master point and connect once master is installed.
 
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  • #8
i would think so. you only need to wire pins 2 and 5. leave cable at master point and connect once master is installed.
Ok thank you for your help. It’s only first fix stage so I’ll just be running all the cabling not connecting anything up at this stage, I’ll daisy chain from what I’ll judge as being the master maybe a front room one I suppose?
Thanks again.
 
You should wire 2 3 and 5 if you want the bells to ring. It is good practice to wire all six if using 3 pair cable to CW 1308.

There is no limit to the number of sockets you can wire in but the old rule was that the maximum REN of the phones plugged in should not exceed 4. REN is ringer equivalent number and used to be used when phones had 4 k ohm bells to limit the amount of current drawn from the exchange. With modern phones I do not really think it matters too much now.

Remember that you should use secondary sockets for everything except the Master which should be provided by BT or the line supplier.

A secondary socket does not have a ringing capacitor, opt out of service resistor or a lightening suppressor.
 
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  • #10
You should wire 2 3 and 5 if you want the bells to ring. It is good practice to wire all six if using 3 pair cable to CW 1308.

There is no limit to the number of sockets you can wire in but the old rule was that the maximum REN of the phones plugged in should not exceed 4. REN is ringer equivalent number and used to be used when phones had 4 k ohm bells to limit the amount of current drawn from the exchange. With modern phones I do not really think it matters too much now.

Remember that you should use secondary sockets for everything except the Master which should be provided by BT or the line supplier.

A secondary socket does not have a ringing capacitor, opt out of service resistor or a lightening suppressor.
Thank you very much. Still unsure as to how I’ll determine which of the 4 bt points on the plans will be the master if I finish first fixing and bt decide to put the master somewhere else I’ll be screwed
 
Thank you very much. Still unsure as to how I’ll determine which of the 4 bt points on the plans will be the master if I finish first fixing and bt decide to put the master somewhere else I’ll be screwed
You or the client should tell BT where to put the flaming Master Socket. The standard price for a new BT line does not vary with the length of cable run
 

davesparks

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Thank you very much. Still unsure as to how I’ll determine which of the 4 bt points on the plans will be the master if I finish first fixing and bt decide to put the master somewhere else I’ll be screwed
BT will put the master wherever you ask them to, it makes sense to have arranged it with them beforehand to establish what is required from their point of view.
Remember BT will stop installing copper services soon in favour of fibre services.

If you don't arrange anything with BT you may find that they come in and run a surface cable around the inside of the property!
Post automatically merged:

You or the client should tell BT where to put the flaming Master Socket. The standard price for a new BT line does not vary with the length of cable run
It doesn't, but the BT operatives are expected to complete a new service install in a specific time regardless of where it is being installed or how much work is involved so they tend to work as quickly as possible (and to a low standard)
 

davesparks

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1st one is master, usually installed by BT. then just daisy chain slaves from there. you should not have more than 4 slaves from a master.
There is no limit to the number of slaves you can have, the only limit is on the total REN of all connected equipment.
 
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  • #15
BT will put the master wherever you ask them to, it makes sense to have arranged it with them beforehand to establish what is required from their point of view.
Remember BT will stop installing copper services soon in favour of fibre services.

If you don't arrange anything with BT you may find that they come in and run a surface cable around the inside of the property!
Post automatically merged:



It doesn't, but the BT operatives are expected to complete a new service install in a specific time regardless of where it is being installed or how much work is involved so they tend to work as quickly as possible (and to a low standard)
Ok great thanks. I’m starting first fix tomorrow so I’ll speak to the builder and/or bt too.
 

littlespark

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If you run a radial between all the secondary’s, there’s a choice of two that can be the master.... one at each end.

kind of old fashioned having a load of phone points. I bet the homeowner ends up with DECT phones and a bunch of empty phone sockets
 
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  • #17
If you run a radial between all the secondary’s, there’s a choice of two that can be the master.... one at each end.

kind of old fashioned having a load of phone points. I bet the homeowner ends up with DECT phones and a bunch of empty phone sockets
That’s a good point about being able to use either end of the radial and I agree about it being old fashioned, it must be an old guy architect who drew the plans up.
 

plugsandsparks

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Suggest have a look around to see how BT has installed nearby properties. Make the master say the nearest to the road. Then radial out from there. Copper is going to be around for a very long time. I have just done a similar and used Cat5 as i carry it anyway.
cheers
P&S
 

davesparks

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Suggest have a look around to see how BT has installed nearby properties. Make the master say the nearest to the road. Then radial out from there. Copper is going to be around for a very long time. I have just done a similar and used Cat5 as i carry it anyway.
cheers
P&S
'very long time' is a bit of a stretch when the current target is for the copper network to be taken out of service in between 5 and 7 years time.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
Suggest have a look around to see how BT has installed nearby properties. Make the master say the nearest to the road. Then radial out from there. Copper is going to be around for a very long time. I have just done a similar and used Cat5 as i carry it anyway.
cheers
P&S
Great thank you.
 
If it were me I would run cat5e or 6 from a convenient central point (Where the master could be installed) with a view of installing a patch panel. These could then be used for telecom or anything else and youd just put the appropriate socket on the end. You could then have as many as you wanted and just ‘patch’ the relevant point into the panel when required.
 
Speak to the builder, he will have been in contact with BT and will probably be installing the duct. The master socket will be through the wall from the end of the duct.
 

UNG

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You should wire 2 3 and 5 if you want the bells to ring. It is good practice to wire all six if using 3 pair cable to CW 1308.

There is no limit to the number of sockets you can wire in but the old rule was that the maximum REN of the phones plugged in should not exceed 4. REN is ringer equivalent number and used to be used when phones had 4 k ohm bells to limit the amount of current drawn from the exchange. With modern phones I do not really think it matters too much now.

Remember that you should use secondary sockets for everything except the Master which should be provided by BT or the line supplier.

A secondary socket does not have a ringing capacitor, opt out of service resistor or a lightening suppressor.
It is now only 2 & 5 that are used the wiring of terminal 3 is known to cause interference and affect ADSL broadband speed and bandwidth while older phones may need terminal 3 connected newer equipment does not. With multi pair cables it is actually better to connect any spare cores down to earth than connect them to the socket again to suppress interference that may affect the broadband
If BT fit an NTE5c+VDSL Mk4 filter it is possible to wire from the filter to an RJ11 extension socket or module for a VDSL hub / router to be located away from the NTE5c ( master ) socket at a more convenient location. It does away with having to fit filters at every extension phone position to prevent crashing the broadband

From past troubleshooting of poor broadband speed and bandwidth issues a lot can be attributed to extension wiring whether it is unnecessary connections, proximity to power cabling or other interference sources
 

pirate

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Can't see the point in having multiple BT outlets these days. My last house had 8, only 1 was used, the master, and cordless phones and the router plugged in to the master.
I think cat5 is a far better idea if you are installing 4 sockets.
 

plugsandsparks

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'very long time' is a bit of a stretch when the current target is for the copper network to be taken out of service in between 5 and 7 years time.
HA, HA, not a hope in hell. You can double that and still be hoping. There are not enough engineers in the world to do that, even if the money was available (which it isn't)
 
With multi pair cables it is actually better to connect any spare cores down to earth than connect them to the socket again to suppress interference that may affect the broadband
I presume you mean a true earth and not one connected to the household electrical system?
 

Simon47

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If you run a radial between all the secondary’s, there’s a choice of two that can be the master.... one at each end.
Actually, the master can be at any of the points. You can wire two wires into a standard punchdown terminal - so can run extensions off in two directions.
kind of old fashioned having a load of phone points. I bet the homeowner ends up with DECT phones and a bunch of empty phone sockets
But as a late friend of mine was fond of saying, better looking at it than for it. It's easy to not use sockets that are there, it's "a lot harder" plugging into a socket you want to use that isn't there.
'very long time' is a bit of a stretch when the current target is for the copper network to be taken out of service in between 5 and 7 years time.
As already said, that's just pie in the sky thinking - not a snowball's chance in hell of it actually happening in that timescale. If they were serious about it, they've be pushing fibre right now - but as it is, they still have pricing (e.g. for FTTPoD, that's on demand) that seem designed to avoid anyone taking them up on it.
It is now only 2 & 5 that are used the wiring of terminal 3 is known to cause interference and affect ADSL broadband speed
No. Current designs of filter plate split out the DSL signal before filtering the voice signal and splitting out the ringer line. So it's safe to wire pin 3.
If BT fit an NTE5c+VDSL Mk4 filter it is possible to wire from the filter to an RJ11 extension socket or module for a VDSL hub / router to be located away from the NTE5c ( master ) socket at a more convenient location.
Doesn't have to be those, many older designs also have terminals for the A&B wires. One way of doing it is to use (e.g.) the green/white pair for the DSL and link that pair behind the extension sockets until you get to the one where you want your modem - then you fit a BT+RJ11 socket and don't take the DSL signal any further.

At my parents house when I was still living there "some years ago" we added extension sockets (as well as more mains sockets, aerial etc) as we redecorated. I put a 201C box under the stairs, routed the incoming line down to it (honestly, the master socket moved all by itself :rolleyes:), and then radially wired out to the extensions. I put a filter on the master socket, and only ran an unfiltered line up to my back room where I had the router.
 

UNG

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Actually, the master can be at any of the points. You can wire two wires into a standard punchdown terminal - so can run extensions off in two directions.
The NTE5 master HAS to be the first socket on the incoming line as removal of the lower part or in the newer NTE5c the front part of the socket isolates the extension wiring for testing of the incoming line. The base part of the socket is the test point for the incoming line

You report a fault to BT and they only want to know about the incoming line and not the extensions anything other than their standard wiring and you will pay for the engineer visit and any work to rectify the problem

But as a late friend of mine was fond of saying, better looking at it than for it. It's easy to not use sockets that are there, it's "a lot harder" plugging into a socket you want to use that isn't there.
Or given that multi pair cables are generally used you can use spare pairs for other uses

No. Current designs of filter plate split out the DSL signal before filtering the voice signal and splitting out the ringer line. So it's safe to wire pin 3.
A lot of the ADSl filter plates are based on the design of the interstitial plates that became common when ADSL was first introduced with plug in filters they disconnected the ringing circuit to kill the interference that affected speed and bandwidth

Doesn't have to be those, many older designs also have terminals for the A&B wires. One way of doing it is to use (e.g.) the green/white pair for the DSL and link that pair behind the extension sockets until you get to the one where you want your modem - then you fit a BT+RJ11 socket and don't take the DSL signal any further.
As it is a new build I doubt BT will be fitting anything other than an NTE5c with or without a VDSL filter

At my parents house when I was still living there "some years ago" we added extension sockets (as well as more mains sockets, aerial etc) as we redecorated. I put a 201C box under the stairs, routed the incoming line down to it (honestly, the master socket moved all by itself :rolleyes:), and then radially wired out to the extensions. I put a filter on the master socket, and only ran an unfiltered line up to my back room where I had the router.
In the days before the NTE5 that was standard BT wiring, once the NTE5 became the norm that all changed
 
I had fibre to the house installed yesterday and it works really well. However there is a box the fibre terminates into then a patch lead to the router both need a 13A socket and all the old copper has been retained as the exchange is not fibre ready for the telephone part of it. I am just glad that it is all in a cupboard and not in a corner of the living room. On that basis if I was wiring a new house now I would try and put the master socket in a cupboard.
 
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