Discuss Need Advice - New Kitchen Rewire in the New Member Introductions area at ElectriciansForums.net

Messages
22
Location
CARDIFF
Hi Guys
New to forum and enjoying reading the threads, all interesting, so..
Looking to re-wire my kitchen due to re-fit and some of you will be unhappy (understandibly) as I am not a qualified sparky, but I will notify building control and get the work certified and passed. This is simply an interest of mine and I enjoy it, I certainly don't intend killing myself or anyone else in the process and will get in local authorities for cert...so here goes, lot's of reading, bear with me, as I really can do with the help to clarify if I am wrong alltogether or on the right track being a diy'er.

I am now installing at home a built in oven 3.39kW, microwave 900w, induction hob 7.5kW, Fridgefreezer, under counter freezer, washing machine and Cooker hood 250w.

All appliances with 4 meters of DB and Clipped direct to wall behind open cavity, not insulated, 75mm cavity to address 50mm depth regs, don't intend to mechanically protect wiring, due to 75mm deep and RCD protected. Walls plasterboard lined for convenience, all wiring within prescribed zones!

So, would this be correct for regs... I have a
Wylex,14way Split Load DB, 2x 80A/30ma RCD's with the addition of potential seperated RCBO's below:

Oven and Induction Hob - DB 32A RCBO
Appliance's Total = 10.89kW- 47.34A using diversity and if maths correct:-
30% = 11.2A, 11.2A+10A= 21.2A total, so from DB using 6mm cable via 45A CCU down to Dual Cooker Outlet using 6mm cable, seperated and terminated at both appliance's using 6mm cable.

Fridgefreezer and Freezer - on separate 20A RCBO dedicated radials using 2.5mm cable via Switched FCU's down to flex outlet plates.

Washing Machine - I'm sure read somewhere regarding Nusiance tripping, not sure if 17th Edition about putting the likes of the washing machine again, on a dedicated curcuit, 20A RCBO using the usual method mentioned or, I could spur off rfc with Switched FCU down to flex outlet plate. This was when I was told I was over the top and pointless by a Sparky, always learning, even at 50.

Finally Microwave(900watt) and Hood(250watt) total 5A
Could these both appliances be powered via a junction box to separate FCU's and outlet plates, on 10A RCBO dedicated radial curcuit.

I have room for these dedicated radials and can keep the RCD protected Split Loads seperate, would this then be the making of a High Integrity Unit?
DP RCBO's or SP RCBO's, so many views on this, not sure.

If you have read this far, I commend you for your patients and appologise if my terminology is not adequate and certainly look forward to your comments and would really appreciate the feedback.
 

Pete999

Forum Mentor
Messages
21,833
Location
Northampton
may have this wrong, but you mention you are fitting a dual RCD CU WITH 2 X 80Amp RCDs why are you intending fitting RCBOs, there will be no need as your outgoing circuits will be RCD protected by the 2x RCD s in the CU?
 

rolyberkin

Electrician's Arms
Messages
1,420
Location
Chelmsford
Without sounding negative how are you going to test all of this? It's all very well putting cables into sockets and clipping them to the wall but if you aren't going to test it properly and actually understand the results of the tests getting LABC to sign it off won't mean a thing. Also an electrical certificate requires three signatures, one for design, one for installation and one for inspection and testing, how will this happen? How will you know if it is safe prior to flicking the switch?
 

Dustydazzler

Regular EF Member
Messages
1,035
Location
Surrey
Without sounding negative how are you going to test all of this? It's all very well putting cables into sockets and clipping them to the wall but if you aren't going to test it properly and actually understand the results of the tests getting LABC to sign it off won't mean a thing. Also an electrical certificate requires three signatures, one for design, one for installation and one for inspection and testing, how will this happen? How will you know if it is safe prior to flicking the switch?


Bang Test ?
 

Wilko

Electrician's Arms
Messages
5,398
Location
Berkshire
Hi - Like any learner, you should not attempt hazardous tasks for which you’ve not been trained. Maybe a find a friendly local Electrician to work with?
 

Nelder

SHNELD
Messages
19
Location
Cheshire
I'm sorry but its clear you don't fully know what your doing. There can be no doubt when electricity is involved.
 
OP
S
Messages
22
Location
CARDIFF
Yes, agree totally with all comments. Wilko, I will get a local electrician to work with and for the reasons Rolybarkin mentioned. Pets 999, I think I will replace with a full board of RCBO's, understand what you are saying, RCD's are already in situ and thought it would be a better arrangement if some curcuits like the freezer are separated from the bank of RCD protected curcuits. Less chance of tripping by isolating those curcuits, especially when you have a fridgefreezer full of grub. apprciating the comments...
 

remedial

Trainee Access
Messages
70
Location
wales
for the oven I'd put in a 10mm cable for future proofing.

all the separate radials are overkill. if isolation is needed thats what the FCUs are there for.
 
OP
S
Messages
22
Location
CARDIFF
I thought that.. now you have mentioned it, I will. cheers Remedial. I agree overkill perhaps, but I think it will be cautious and good practise from a design layout to have at least the fridgefreezer and has I have with the garage on their own separate RCBO curcuits, preference I suppose. Thanks Guys
 

Intoelectrics

Regular EF Member
Messages
218
Location
Midlands
There's nothing wrong with discrimination in any electrical design, usually more the better. But there is no need to over kill it, which would be costly for no particular good reason. Individual RCBO's are a preferred method and much better for kitchen installations where there is the likelihood of many different electrical appliances being used.
Much more sensible to get a local electrician in to design the install for you, maybe be ok with you working on it and then the sparky signing it off after completion.
Testing of these systems is a requirement and requires the correct testing equipment, knowledge and understanding to complete competently.
If you proceed on your own you could find you have made a costly mistake when its too late. Better to learn as you go with the assistance of a knowledgeable and experienced time served qualified professional.
 
OP
S
Messages
22
Location
CARDIFF
I have mentioned SPD's to some sparky's locally and I see the sense of them with the amount of electronics within households today, but one sparky told me SPD's are a pain in the ar** to install due to the complicated risk assessment paperwork involved, but reading the regs as a DIyer that I am, this is now compulsory on a single dwelling if you do not complete a risk assessment, am I correct Midwest.
 

Murdoch

Regular EF Member
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25,126
Location
Woking
OP
S
Messages
22
Location
CARDIFF
Intoelectrics... agree, I'm not a sparky, but feel that RCBO's can fit into design alongside RCD protected circuits for discrimination as you stated, especially the kitchen. Also agree with calling in an electrician to assess my install and signing off before energising system. Doing this for the enjoyment and knowledge...but safety is paramount!
 

SparkyChick

Making a banana smoothy for my fave gorilla
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
3,694
Location
South Wales
Intoelectrics... agree, I'm not a sparky, but feel that RCBO's can fit into design alongside RCD protected circuits for discrimination as you stated, especially the kitchen. Also agree with calling in an electrician to assess my install and signing off before energising system. Doing this for the enjoyment and knowledge...but safety is paramount!
As you're in Cardiff, you cannot use the third party certification route. In Wales we are required to follow the 2010 version of Approved Document P which (a) makes the kitchen a special location requiring any work involving changing the fixed wiring a notifiable job and (b) did not contain the provision for Third Party Certification.

This provision was introduced into Approved Document P in 2013 which is after the Welsh Assembly took control of the building regulations (which is why we're still working to the 2010 version).
 
OP
S
Messages
22
Location
CARDIFF
Sparkychick all noted, but go to your nearest wholesaler, Screwfix or Toolstation near you, they are filled with experience but unqualified time served sparky's (very good one's) who are first, second and third fixing, just to get their certs at the end of the job from a qualified electrician. This is the reality as you know well, I know at least three great successful contractors who do this. Inspection and testing complete, all passed, cert supplied, money changes hands, this is the way of the world. Work is safe, customer is safe and more people earning a living...what's new!!
 

Pete999

Forum Mentor
Messages
21,833
Location
Northampton
Sparkychick all noted, but go to your nearest wholesaler, Screwfix or Toolstation near you, they are filled with experience but unqualified time served sparky's (very good one's) who are first, second and third fixing, just to get their certs at the end of the job from a qualified electrician. This is the reality as you know well, I know at least three great successful contractors who do this. Inspection and testing complete, all passed, cert supplied, money changes hands, this is the way of the world. Work is safe, customer is safe and more people earning a living...what's new!!
Screwfix and Toolstation all timed served Sparks??
 
OP
S
Messages
22
Location
CARDIFF
More Sparks transferring to Screwfix and Toolstation daily, that's why the likes of Denman's and other Electrical wholesalers are closing branches. Quicker service, Guaranteed more items available in stock, most rates compare with wholesalers and all at the touch of an iPad.
 

Murdoch

Regular EF Member
Messages
25,126
Location
Woking

Murdoch

Regular EF Member
Messages
25,126
Location
Woking
More Sparks transferring to Screwfix and Toolstation daily, that's why the likes of Denman's and other Electrical wholesalers are closing branches. Quicker service, Guaranteed more items available in stock, most rates compare with wholesalers and all at the touch of an iPad.
I've given you a "disagree" because you are wrong.

House bashers like Screwfix, but their products and stock profiles fall well short of the kit most of us actually need.

Anyway, I thought you were a DIYer? If you know so much about the habits of sparks why don't you ask them?
 
Last edited:

SparkyChick

Making a banana smoothy for my fave gorilla
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The fact that it's taking place does not make it right or legal.

If something were to go wrong I suspect everyone's insurance company would be looking for a get out clause and they'll have been handed one by the people who do this.

I've been asked to do it and refused, just as I've been asked to provide a satisfactory EICR for an installation that was far from it... funnily enough after a 'spark' (and I use the term loosely) had done a disappearing act when it came to signing off because his mate wouldn't supply him with a cert like he usually did. The job had the potential to be truly shocking in the worst way possible... I believe the client eventually found someone mug enough to sign it off though, but that's OK because it's just someone earning a living.

Ultimately I guess it's down to ones character... whether or not they want to knowingly break the law and assist someone else in doing so. Personally I like to sleep soundly at night which is why I don't engage myself in drive by EICRs and signing off other peoples work.
 
OP
S
Messages
22
Location
CARDIFF
I totally commend you for that statement and wholly agree with every word you said, but let's put this in context, as you know there are very good electricians who have their work passed off and do earn a living making the end user's environment safe with good design, good practice and a competent and qualified person to complete Inspection and testing at end of install, this is so true of so many...but, so is the fact that irresponsible contractors sign off "Cowboys" work to the danger of the end user...and should be jailed for this practice, this I also understand! I know of one electrician who is very well respected for his knowledge and 30 years experience in this trade and contractors have told me that he is top of his game and.... take advice off him, yet the contractors sign off his work because he does not want to sit the exams and never will!
So, I was just trying to make this point, of course dangerous work cannot be condoned and I would not sleep at night either. Look, this swings both ways... as an end user, about 10 years ago, my bro had an electrician to put in garden lights, and a day before he finished, me... "a DIYer" turned up at my brothers home and found that the termination of the SWA into the junction boxes and light fitments was so shoddy to the point that within a few days there would have been an ingress of water onto live connections, the copper compression glands had not been tightened and the gland sleeves were not present on some fitting, this electrician was signing his own work off the next day leaving a potential death trap and my brothers kids were 3 and 7yrs at the time, I threw him offsite as he argued this was to regs. So, there are as many "electricians" out there that are even more dangerous than "competent persons", as they have the right to sign off their own poor workmanship!! No trade is exempt from this behaviour, unfortunately.
I'm not a Spark, I have been told by a Spark to sit the Part P, but I am fortunate to have a successful career elsewhere, but does not stop me enjoying and being interested in this trade. I respect Good Practise Qualified Electricians and that is why I am on this site to learn without killing anyone!
 

Dustydazzler

Regular EF Member
Messages
1,035
Location
Surrey
When doing house rewires I almost exclusively get my junk from Screwfix and toolstation

Occasionally use TLC for bigger trunking etc

Odd ball bits off eBay etc

Hardly ever use any of the traditional wholesalers these days
 
OP
S
Messages
22
Location
CARDIFF
Screwfix is opening a branch monthly, traditional wholesalers are diminishing, unfortunately true, not just in this sector. Wholesalers do not invest in the services and software to allow local pick up within the hour, online shopping all hours, viewing local branch stock immediately, as I mentioned earlier through talking to local sparks, most are converting, simply due to the convenience.
 

Dustydazzler

Regular EF Member
Messages
1,035
Location
Surrey
What absolutely killed it stone dead for me was when my local Screwfix could offer me twin and earth cable about 20% cheaper than my local cef or wf

I used to do a lot of subby house bashing for a big electrical firm who were buying twin and earth by the pallet.
I could still get a roll of 2.5 cheaper in Screwfix
 
OP
S
Messages
22
Location
CARDIFF
If you talk to the local Branch Managers, Screwfix are now honed in on all other electrical suppliers and are now gunning for the majority of business to be had, they can only improve with the Backing of the Kingfisher Group. Their prices will get keener and will start stocking the more specialised products as described by Murdoch.
 

Midwest

Electrician's Arms
Messages
11,195
Location
Oxfordshire
Not wishing to divert the thread, but the OP started it :)

When I was contracting, small turnover, I used both a wholesaler (Rexel) and Screwfix. I primarily used Screwfix, for MK switches & sockets, which were sourced cheaper than Rexel. The other bread & butter stuff Rexel were cheaper, including tw&e. You just have to ask for a better discount with your wholesaler. Screwfix are open at the weekends, my Rexel isn't.

True enough, you can sit on a PC, and get stuff not in stock next day from Screwfix, & see the price, but you can get a similar service from a decent wholesaler.

Agree though, the only 'local' electrical wholesaler I had, has gone under recently.
 

Zerax

Regular EF Member
Messages
127
Location
London
If you talk to the local Branch Managers, Screwfix are now honed in on all other electrical suppliers and are now gunning for the majority of business to be had, they can only improve with the Backing of the Kingfisher Group. Their prices will get keener and will start stocking the more specialised products as described by Murdoch.
I've noticed that Screwfix are more expensive on some items these days... it's starting to be a chore comparing pricing with Toolstation on the wholesalers. I even find that B&Q (also part of Kingfisher) can be cheaper than Screwfix sometimes... I think generally they're getting very clever with pricing, making more margin in the process.
 
OP
S
Messages
22
Location
CARDIFF
I agree with you all, it is a real shame that even the independent wholesalers are few and far between, but the likes of Screwfix and Toolstation are well-oiled machines with big funding and will only improve, and yes, they will slip in some raised prices here and there (clever retailing). But, I really do hope that the wholesalers survive, because the giants are dominating all sectors of the markets, just look at how empty the high streets are... anyway my apologies, I have diverted the thread, I did come on here originally for advice from you experienced guys and have been well satisfied with the advice received, learned and few things along the way and have had some enjoyable debates and discussions with you all. Glad I joined the forum
 

Tony Reidy

Electrician's Arms
Messages
121
Location
bedfordshire
Hi Guys
New to forum and enjoying reading the threads, all interesting, so..
Looking to re-wire my kitchen due to re-fit and some of you will be unhappy (understandibly) as I am not a qualified sparky, but I will notify building control and get the work certified and passed. This is simply an interest of mine and I enjoy it, I certainly don't intend killing myself or anyone else in the process and will get in local authorities for cert...so here goes, lot's of reading, bear with me, as I really can do with the help to clarify if I am wrong alltogether or on the right track being a diy'er.

I am now installing at home a built in oven 3.39kW, microwave 900w, induction hob 7.5kW, Fridgefreezer, under counter freezer, washing machine and Cooker hood 250w.

All appliances with 4 meters of DB and Clipped direct to wall behind open cavity, not insulated, 75mm cavity to address 50mm depth regs, don't intend to mechanically protect wiring, due to 75mm deep and RCD protected. Walls plasterboard lined for convenience, all wiring within prescribed zones!

So, would this be correct for regs... I have a
Wylex,14way Split Load DB, 2x 80A/30ma RCD's with the addition of potential seperated RCBO's below:

Oven and Induction Hob - DB 32A RCBO
Appliance's Total = 10.89kW- 47.34A using diversity and if maths correct:-
30% = 11.2A, 11.2A+10A= 21.2A total, so from DB using 6mm cable via 45A CCU down to Dual Cooker Outlet using 6mm cable, seperated and terminated at both appliance's using 6mm cable.

Fridgefreezer and Freezer - on separate 20A RCBO dedicated radials using 2.5mm cable via Switched FCU's down to flex outlet plates.

Washing Machine - I'm sure read somewhere regarding Nusiance tripping, not sure if 17th Edition about putting the likes of the washing machine again, on a dedicated curcuit, 20A RCBO using the usual method mentioned or, I could spur off rfc with Switched FCU down to flex outlet plate. This was when I was told I was over the top and pointless by a Sparky, always learning, even at 50.

Finally Microwave(900watt) and Hood(250watt) total 5A
Could these both appliances be powered via a junction box to separate FCU's and outlet plates, on 10A RCBO dedicated radial curcuit.

I have room for these dedicated radials and can keep the RCD protected Split Loads seperate, would this then be the making of a High Integrity Unit?
DP RCBO's or SP RCBO's, so many views on this, not sure.

If you have read this far, I commend you for your patients and appologise if my terminology is not adequate and certainly look forward to your comments and would really appreciate the feedback.
Your going over the top get a sparks in will save you money
 

Des 56

Forum Mentor
Messages
7,376
Location
Gliese 581C
I'm not a Spark, I have been told by a Spark to sit the Part P

What has "sitting the Part P" (whatever that happens to be) got to do with the training required to become a electrician

It seems to me yet again,a building regulation is thought to have something to do with a electrical qualification
 

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