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CardboardUncle

Hi all,

I've recently started a new job making the jump from domestic new build to doing minor works on commercial buildings adding lights to existing circuits etc..
Carrying out the work isn't the issue it's the regulations and paper work side of it. minor works certs etc which I have never had to do before. My understanding is when adding new lights to current circuits, what I add to that circuit is what needs to be up with current regulation? My problem is these buildings I'm working in are quite old so some of them haven't got RCD's protecting the circuits and some may not have earths in the lighting circuits at all. is there any way around these problems by declaring it on the minor works certs or not?

any help appreciated
Thanks.
 
Hi all,

I've recently started a new job making the jump from domestic new build to doing minor works on commercial buildings adding lights to existing circuits etc..
Carrying out the work isn't the issue it's the regulations and paper work side of it. minor works certs etc which I have never had to do before. My understanding is when adding new lights to current circuits, what I add to that circuit is what needs to be up with current regulation? My problem is these buildings I'm working in are quite old so some of them haven't got RCD's protecting the circuits and some may not have earths in the lighting circuits at all. is there any way around these problems by declaring it on the minor works certs or not?

any help appreciated
Thanks.

Your post raises a number of questions - could you give more detail before you get a number of questions from others?

Like - extra lights - are you adding switches
Is RCD protection required for the cables?
What type of lights are you fitting?
What has your boss said to you about certs?

Above all remember the cert means you have to describe YOUR work and by filling in the boxes YOU are taking responsibility!
 
Okay, well..

I'm going to be adding extra lights to loft spaces, most lofts already have at least one light and switch up there. So i was just going to come off the last light, or pull another switch wire from the switch. I'm going to be fitting 5ft emergency florescent fittings. so the supply is already there. My concern is with current regulations and only working on new builds previous, that by adding to this circuit wont be up to current regulation. I was employed to do the labour side of it but it turns out they want me to look at each specific job too and decide whats needed how long it will take, carry out the work bringing it up to regulations and then filling out and signing off a minor works certificate.

In older premises there wont be earthing present in the lighting circuits, and there wont be RCD's either.. but I am unsure whether it is just a case of me adding to the circuit and making sure the part that I'm adding is up to the current standard or do I then have to bring the entire circuit i have worked on up to standard. Or is that what the departures section of the minor works certificate is for?

thanks.
 
Okay, well..

I'm going to be adding extra lights to loft spaces, most lofts already have at least one light and switch up there. Don't bet on it.
So i was just going to come off the last light, or pull another switch wire from the switch. I'm going to be fitting 5ft emergency florescent fittings. so the supply is already there. Again, don't bet on it. Some installations will have permanent lives at the lights some will have them down at the switches.
My concern is with current regulations and only working on new builds previous, that by adding to this circuit wont be up to current regulation. I was employed to do the labour side of it but it turns out they want me to look at each specific job too and decide whats needed how long it will take, carry out the work bringing it up to regulations and then filling out and signing off a minor works certificate.
The work you do needs to be compliant with the current regulations. Sometimes this might mean improving parts of existing circuits to ensure your work complies. You are the professional employed to work out the best and, by the sounds of it, quickest and cheapest way to ensure compliance.

In older premises there wont be earthing present in the lighting circuits, and there wont be RCD's either.. but I am unsure whether it is just a case of me adding to the circuit and making sure the part that I'm adding is up to the current standard or do I then have to bring the entire circuit i have worked on up to standard. Or is that what the departures section of the minor works certificate is for?
Departures are not to be used if they make the installation work less safe than is prescribed by BS7671. It is only the work you are installing that needs to comply in the strictest sense, and it is only your work that should be pertained to on any paperwork. You will still need to assess the existing installation for suitability in the usual way including testing any circuits you are adapting. In the case of no CPC present you must obviously provide an earth path for the work you are carrying out. Same for RCD protection, if your work requires it you must add it in some way.

thanks.

My thoughts in blue.
 
Existing installation must be safe and adequate to take the extra load you are applying to it - this is your responsibility.
The existing installation will more than likely not meet current "regs" but that doesn't mean you have to run about like a mad man changing everything.

If the lighting circuit doesn't have a CPC then you can either run one as a single - not too difficult if all surface mounted but if buried or boarded this may not be a viable option. The other option is just use class 2 fittings throughout.
if you choose 2nd option I would then also change any switches or existing fittings to class 2 also.
 
Existing installation must be safe and adequate to take the extra load you are applying to it - this is your responsibility.
The existing installation will more than likely not meet current "regs" but that doesn't mean you have to run about like a mad man changing everything.

If the lighting circuit doesn't have a CPC then you can either run one as a single - not too difficult if all surface mounted but if buried or boarded this may not be a viable option. The other option is just use class 2 fittings throughout.
if you choose 2nd option I would then also change any switches or existing fittings to class 2 also.

This is not an option for any new work installed.
 
This is my problem though. With the sheer size of some installations it would be impossible for me to install an earth path. It looks like a feed has been pulled from one of the lighting points on the floor below the loft area. which has then fed a switch by a loft hatch then supplied the loft light. My first thought when discovering no earth would be to install double insulated fittings but again for the minor work cert it requires zs values and r1+r2 values and would this be acceptable? The type of buildings i will be working in are pubs and hotels. so as for rcd protection is this now a necessity even if for regulations previous didnt require it? could an rcd light switch be used?

Think I've been sold short in my job role here.
 
MWC doesn't ask for R1 R2 values it asks for EFLI - if swapping out old light fittings for class 2 fittings in existing installation then obviously this wouldn't be measurable at end of circuit and as said above (sorry for bad info) you wouldn't be able to instal new wiring without CPC anyway.

if they have employed you to do the job then surely they would be willing to listen to your professional opinion and if this turns out to be something as drastic as installing complete new circuit or complete rewire of lighting circuit then surely they would go with it.
 
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This is my problem though. With the sheer size of some installations it would be impossible for me to install an earth path. It looks like a feed has been pulled from one of the lighting points on the floor below the loft area. which has then fed a switch by a loft hatch then supplied the loft light. My first thought when discovering no earth would be to install double insulated fittings but again for the minor work cert it requires zs values and r1+r2 values and would this be acceptable? The type of buildings i will be working in are pubs and hotels. so as for rcd protection is this now a necessity even if for regulations previous didnt require it? could an rcd light switch be used?

Think I've been sold short in my job role here.

I think you need to open your regs and do some study.
 
MWC doesn't ask for R1 R2 values it asks for EFLI - if swapping out old light fittings for class 2 fittings in existing installation then obviously this wouldn't be measurable at end of circuit and as said above (sorry for bad info) you wouldn't be able to instal new wiring without CPC anyway.

if they have employed you to do the job then surely they would be willing to listen to your professional opinion and if this turns out to be something as drastic as installing complete new circuit or complete rewire of lighting circuit then surely they would go with it.

Are you ABSOLUTELY sure that MWC doesn't ask for the dead test R1 + R2?
 
The model form doesn't include R1+R2 test.

hum, it ask for earth continuity satisfactory - which to me is a dead test, to confirm continuity, and the easiest way to do this is R1+ R2

interestingly the AMD3 version is the same!

I still don't think you should bypass the dead test and go straight for the bang test
 
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hum, it ask for earth continuity satisfactory - which to me is a dead test, to confirm continuity, and the easiest way to do this is R1+ R2

interestingly the AMD3 version is the same!

I still don't think you should bypass the dead test and go straight for the bang test


ok I guess in a round about way it asks you for the results of R1+R2.
 
No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.
 
Having read up on a few things over the weekend am I right in the following:

Any work that I carry out obviously has to be up the 17th standard, but if your adding to a circuit you don't have to bring that entire circuit up to 17th standard only your (new) own work?

The need for an rcd is only required when the cables are in walls and buried at a depth of less than 500mm, So if i were to install a new circuit and mount the cables in plastic trunking and/or clipped direct to joists in a loft space for example this makes the lighting exempt from the use of an rcd? (again i have read this and then somewhere else read they must be regardless)

If they are to be protected regardless, is it okay to add an rcd fused spur as the first point where my work would begin on the circuit and then rcd protect the part of the installation i am going to be adding not the entire circuit.

As said previous this is a new area of work for me and I dont have no where near as much experience as most of you guys on here so any help is much appreciated

thanks.
 
Having read up on a few things over the weekend am I right in the following:

Any work that I carry out obviously has to be up the 17th standard, but if your adding to a circuit you don't have to bring that entire circuit up to 17th standard only your (new) own work?
Yes, your work must meet the current regulations, which may involve changing something in the existing circuit in order to get your work to comply.
The rest of the existing circuit must be safe to be used, but not necessarily up to current regulations.


The need for an rcd is only required when the cables are in walls and buried at a depth of less than 500mm, So if i were to install a new circuit and mount the cables in plastic trunking and/or clipped direct to joists in a loft space for example this makes the lighting exempt from the use of an rcd? (again i have read this and then somewhere else read they must be regardless)
There are specific requirements for 30mA RCD protection as additional protection: all socket outlets <=20A, outdoor use mobile equipment <= 32A, LV circuits within a location containing a bath or shower, cables buried <50mm in a wall or partition, additional special locations of increased risk to persons or livestock. There are exclusions to the above. These would have to be complied with for your work on the circuit or any part you alter.
In your example if you were putting cable in trunking in or through a bathroom this would not exclude the 30mA RCD requirement.

If they are to be protected regardless, is it okay to add an rcd fused spur as the first point where my work would begin on the circuit and then rcd protect the part of the installation i am going to be adding not the entire circuit.
This is acceptable however good practice (and possibly convenience and cost) might indicate that protecting the entire circuit may be appropriate.
On changing a ring final circuit, unless it is only a spur, it is difficult to apply only partial RCD protection.


As said previous this is a new area of work for me and I don't have anywhere near as much experience as most of you guys on here so any help is much appreciated

thanks.
my thoughts in red above
 

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