odd pir advice

[electrician4u]

Just been looking at the esc website and saw a strange report which i've never come across before which can be used instead of a pir called a domestic visual condition report. has anyone seen that before? seems like if the general public knew, they would generally go for that as it involves no testing-not safe, obviously but with so many unscrupulous, tight landlords, house sellers, etc. around it seems to make the pir a bit redundant. 

 

[telectrix]

visual condition report is just what it says. can only advise on glaringly obvious defects, like no bonding of services, broken or damaged accessories. it will not find latent faults which could be life threatening. waste of time and effort. you wouldn't pass a vehicle for MOT just because there's no gaping holes in the body and all the doors are attached, would you.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I agree with Tel, its not worth the paper it is written on. It certainly wouldn't wash in court for a landlord who saved a few quid and let his tenant get killed.
It annoys me when i read about these made up short cuts. It is either tested and inspected properly, or not at all. the only way a visual could be allowed would be in the case of a property which is maintained on an "ongoing basis" in which case it would be tested etc properly over a period of time and the visual would be part of that process.

Cheers............Howard

 

[FAA Greenie]

Agree with all the above, you will not find a model form for these in the BRB. However, i have to admit to having used them. I have a client who is a property manager who provides plenty of work for me. He lets out houses to single occupants and also does multiple occupancy. Multiple occupancy as you will know, requires a PIR but single, for some odd reason, as i understand it only requires owner to provide a duty of care for the tenant in this regard and so that is where these 'cheap' alternative certs came from. I only ever use them for single occupancies and I explain to the guy that all i can really do is make sure that small fingers can't find their way into accesories etc and that no testing has been carried out on the installation to ensure it is safe for use. When I first started with this guy, he wanted a 'Landlords safety certificate'. I refused to issue one with this title as it implies that i was certifying it safe. At least a DVCR is exactly just what it says on the tin. I ALWAYS provide a cover note with the DVCR re emphasising exactly what I have told the client and keep a copy for myself. I don't like using these forms but if i didn't he would find someone else that did. My client, to his credit, does insist on 17th edn boards fitted to his properties and we have an understanding that if I test the RCD's and they fail, I won't issue a cert. (A DVCR doesn't even require an RCD test believe it or not)!!

 

[oxocube]

They are both the same thing just different names. A PIR can be carried out with out doing any dismantling or testing, if thats what been agreed with the client.

 

[Engineer54]

They are both the same thing just different names. A PIR can be carried out with out doing any dismantling or testing, if thats what been agreed with the client.

Just what would such a PIR achieve then?? That to me, is playing around with the parameters that has been laid down as the very basis of a PIR. In other words a totally pointless exercise, and not worth a peanut to anyone...

 

[oxocube]

Its not a pointless exercise, I have done many 100's of commercial/industrial surveys without doing any testing. The clients just want an impression of the design and condition ie if it looks good then its probably ok. This is possibly because the installations have always been under the control of contractors. And an expereienced eye can pick up all kinds of defects.

And my original statement is in line with esc guidance.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I have to admit that these reports are good in some environments, such as holiday lets, where a visual report can be used in conjunction with a full PIR.

I did something similar with a nursing home that had several units, developed a visual check form, that went a little further as it included quarterly testing of RCD/RCBOs and also IR tests on the RCBO circuits, and a sampling of the circuit.

Since I did this a few years back the guy who took over from me on this contract developed and now these homes have not needed a PIR done for 7 years as they have proved to regulation 622.2 that they have a continuous monitoring and maintenance programme

 

[Engineer54]

Its not a pointless exercise, I have done many 100's of commercial/industrial surveys without doing any testing. The clients just want an impression of the design and condition ie if it looks good then its probably ok. This is possibly because the installations have always been under the control of contractors. And an expereienced eye can pick up all kinds of defects.

And my original statement is in line with esc guidance.

Haha... What are you saying, that an industrial installation, doesn't need periodic testing, just a quick visual check ...and all's well?? Having been brought up within large industrial environment, ...that my friend is just pure Crap!!!

But having said that, i am no longer surprised at what goes on in the UK these days, and i can well believe you guy's going round, half the time not even knowing what your looking at, and giving every thing a green light cause it looks pretty good to the eye. as you say, if it looks good it probably is, ...Right?? That i guess, is what they call progress, but not as far as i'm concerned....

 

[tony mc]

Agree with Tel and sirkit breaker on this.


This is what the ESC say (I bet all the landlords have had a full PIR in the last 2 years!!!!)

Visual condition reports​

A visual condition report will include the results of the inspection of
the electrical installation.
A visual condition report does not include testing, so the inspection
is not likely to find hidden damage to equipment (for example,
damage to cables and joints).
Usually, a visual inspection report is only suitable if the installation
has been tested in the last couple of years, and the results were
reported (on an electrical installation certificate or a periodic​

inspection report) as being satisfactory (good enough).

 

[oxocube]

Haha... What are you saying, that an industrial installation, doesn't need periodic testing, just a quick visual check ...and all's well??

I never said that, I said that because All the work would be "under the control of contractors" ie all the work was installed and tested in the correct manner.

Having been brought up within large industrial environment,

I am impressed.

..that my friend is just pure Crap!!!

The one who is talking crap and demonstrating a lack of experience and knowledge is you.

But having said that, i am no longer surprised at what goes on in the UK these days, and i can well believe you guy's going round, half the time not even knowing what your looking at, and giving every thing a green light cause it looks pretty good to the eye. as you say, if it looks good it probably is, ...Right?? That i guess, is what they call progress, but not as far as i'm concerned....

You're very good with the insults, makes me think perhaps you're not much good at anything else.

 

[telectrix]

I never said that, I said that because All the work would be "under the control of contractors" ie all the work was installed and tested in the correct manner.



I am impressed.



The one who is talking crap and demonstrating a lack of experience and knowledge is you.



You're very good with the insults, makes me think perhaps you're not much good at anything else.

this forum, like many others, is here for exchange of ideas, advice, and general discussion of the relevant subject. it is NOT HERE FOR THE PURPOSE OF MUD-SLINGING. if that is what makes you tick, i'd suggest faceache or some other social crap site.

 

[Engineer54]

Hahaha!! Another that believes in his own crap!! Your the guy that doesn't quite know the difference between bonding and earthing, Right??

Listen, stick to doing those 100's of visual checks... You obviously have no concept of a real industrial installation, so you must be talking about these tiny prefab industrial unit things. Those are the only industrial installations that i know of, ...that would be under the control of contractors.

So far in your short time on the Forum, it's you that have been overly insulting, and to those that have highly respected forum reputations, with the experience to match in our electrical industry.... I'd look towards yourself mate, when talking about lack of knowledge and experience... Me, i've been around far too long, and seen enough like you to ignore with a yawn!!!

 

[oxocube]

this forum, like many others, is here for exchange of ideas, advice, and general discussion of the relevant subject. it is NOT HERE FOR THE PURPOSE OF MUD-SLINGING. if that is what makes you tick, i'd suggest faceache or some other social crap site.

Read back through this thread, engneer54 started with the mud slinging, not me.

 

[oxocube]

Hahaha!! Another that believes in his own crap!!

More insults, do you ever stop?

Your the guy that doesn't quite know the difference between bonding and earthing, Right??

No, I know the difference between earthing and bonding, and that bonding is also earthing.

Listen, stick to doing those 100's of visual checks... You obviously have no concept of a real industrial installation, so you must be talking about these tiny prefab industrial unit things. Those are the only industrial installations that i know of, ...that would be under the control of contractors.

Highest voltage worked on 400K, heaviest current 250,000 Amps.

So far in your short time on the Forum, it's you that have been overly insulting, and to those that have highly respected forum reputations, with the experience to match in our electrical industry.... I'd look towards yourself mate, when talking about lack of knowledge and experience... Me, i've been around far too long, and seen enough like you to ignore with a yawn!!!

As I said you're pretty good at insults and it would be very pleasant to be ignored by you.

 

[Engineer54]

Quote: As I said you're pretty good at insults and it would be very pleasant to be ignored by you. :QUOTE



You've got it !!

 

[oxocube]

Quote: As I said you're pretty good at insults and it would be very pleasant to be ignored by you. :QUOTE



You've got it !!

Thank you

 

[1shortcircuit]

I need to go back to the beginning of this thread now to remember what it was all about as I got sidetracked eating my popcorn watching the mud wrestling that came out of nowhere lol

:thumbsup

18:30, soon be beer o'clock so hopefully the tension will be drowned out and replaced with cyber-love and friend making on electriciansforums

 

[tlangdon12]

As a responsible, but new, landlord, I intend to have my properties PIR'ed every five years, PAT done at each change of tenant, AND visual condition inspections of the electrical installation done by my letting agent at each change of tenant.

Another landlord might be interested in having the visual condition inspection done by another party if their Letting Agent didn't want to provide this service. So having a ready-made format for such an inspection that a electrician can carry out is perhaps not such a bad idea. Providing the person requesting the visual condition report understands its limitations, it does have a place in an overall management plan.

Tony

 

[Des 56]

Of course the visual could have some place in a plan

The problem with the "thingy2 as I like to call it for derogatory purposes,is that it is not an inspection and test as per the good book.
It is however,a very easy simple tool that a dodgy or even an ignorant landlord could use instead of a proper testing regime,(which is possibly the best way of a landlord passing responsibility of his duty of care to another party) and being in a strong position should any incident occur

The only problem with my above statement that I see,is the actual pir can and very often is carried out by electricians who may not be competent to do so

The main culprit with that is the Niceic, who use the dangerous qualified supervisor systen, where an unskilled person can and often is sent out on these missions
Then you have the crap pir to show, that may exclude you the landlord from the courts wrath,but betrays the safety of the tennant
If you are genuine in your desire for a safe installation,forget the myth and nonesense that an Niceic Pir is the one to get, and instead insist on the electriocian, who actually will be doing the testing and inspection,make sure he is qualified (2391 perhaps)and experienced
A labourers inspection signed by a guy in an office who may have never seen the installation is as much a fake as the visual "thingy"