Outdoor SWA Distribution Circuit; Can it be clipped to a FENCE?

[Colonel Hathi]

Hi
Can anybody pls advise ...
I was under the impression that it is ok to clip SWA along a wall - but not a fence, because a fence is not deemed a permanent structure?
I believed that your only choice was to clip to a wall or bury 600mm deep?
I recently lost a job because the customer was advised by another electrician that it is ok just to clip swa to a fence.
I have been checking the regs and reference books and although I can find details on the requirements for burying a cable, I cannot find where it states that we cannot clip to a fence.
Can anybody solve this one for me?
Ideally I would like to be able to quote either BS7671 or Building regs.
Or is it just a "best practice" issue?

Thanks for your advice chaps

 

[Mark.W]

No reason why you can't clip SWA to a wall, as long as it is a permanent fixture.

 

[Colonel Hathi]

Thanks Mark
Yes I knew that you could attach to a wall - but not a fence?
Can you remember off the top of your head where it says that we can only attach to a permanent structure? Is it in BS7671?
I would really like to have this one pinned down because because based on the advice I have given the customer he may think I was just trying to drum up business (although he was going to have to dig the trench himself).

Thanks again

 

[nick611]

i would happily clip swa to a fence if its a nice strong one. whats the problem? once the fence is rotten its the owners problem to get it and the swa sorted.

 

[Mark.W]

i would happily clip swa to a fence if its a nice strong one. whats the problem? once the fence is rotten its the owners problem to get it and the swa sorted.

Really??

Are you saying that you would happily clip the cable to a fence knowing that one day it will need to be replaced......at the customers cost......

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I'd happily clip to a fence as long as if the fence fell over there would not be any undue hazard,general regulations on mechanical protection of cable apply....I would not be happy to have any terminations attached to the fence though, as clearly they would be a hazard if the fence fell over.

 

[pushrod]

Where i live the council have clipped swa 6' up the trunk of a tree, on the edge of the kiddies playground, and finished it with a waterproof JB and every year they put the xmas lights into it. It has been there about 4 or 5 years !

 

[Colonel Hathi]

Thanks very much for all the replies.
I still haven't found anything in the Regs that says we cannot clip cables to a fence - BUT, I have found a reference in the NICEIC "Domestic Installation Guide" (Page 263).

"Surface Mounted Cables"
Surface fixed cables may be fixed to permanent structures. Timber fencing is not considered to be suitable for supporting cables for reasons which may include the following:
- wood preservatives may attack the cable sheath
- timber fencing is unlikely to be sufficiently rigid
- the life of timber fencing is likely to be less than that of the cable
- damage sustained to the fence due to high winds (may present a risk of electric shock)
Surface fixed cables should not be exposed to prolonged sunlight unless they are ... black thermoplastic"

I would still prefer to have a reference to the BS7671 or Buildings Regs - but at least I can say that I followed NICEIC guidance.

Still interested in your advice chaps - and any Regs references you can give.

Cheers

 

[sparks1234]

its fine

 

[jeremy]

I'd have thought it's a good way of stopping the fence from falling over in strong winds! (TIC)

 

[grantr37]

I would have thought there would be a few comments from Health and safety people if they seen a mains cable clipped along a fence, something along the lines of Electric Fence.....what happens if a cow/sheep or even a dog chews through it....or a kid or adult climbs over the fence and splits it, I personally wouldnt put any electricity cables insulated or otherwise anywhere near the easy reach of anybody...

If a Farm Animal or a pet dog gets killed chewing/scratching itself on a cable on a fence, you will get the blame and sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an Adult gets hurt, you will get sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an adult gets killed you will get sued for millions and banned from working in a trade, and maybe a year in Jail....If a child gets hurt, you will go to Jail for probably 3 or 4 years and get sued for millions, if a kid was to get a shock and die, they would put you away for maybe 15 years, sue you for/fine you millions of pounds and go after all your immediate familys assets and property as well, and your whole life would be ruined and basically over.....then in jail they would probably end up doing you in.


leave them to it, to put a cable along a fence(made from metal wire/mesh) at waist height, they just want to take any work that others are not keen on doing, even if it is blatantly dangerous and/or illegal....right where people (particularly kids) can climb on it, it can be subject to chewing by animals and movement/damage from other causes...and may end up exposing live conductors and also making a length of the fence live...

You were right to refuse to do it, I would also have chosen to bury the cable, the problem is that a lot of customers go round different tradesmen until they hear what they want to hear(which is that it will be done dirt cheap) its a case of "well I think that it can be done this way and I say so" to which the reply is either "thats dangerous-count me out" or "certainly, definately".....they go with the second response, then they ask for a discount for cash....and blame the sparky if anything goes wrong...


heres a silly example......*Customer*"I want you to put a supply to my caravan from that shed.......I want it in this stuff....(shows a reel of speaker wire)....heres the stuff"........which we would say "No thats dangerous it should be done with this and that".......(customer thinks- thats too expensive).....asks a cowboy.......cowboy says "twenny quid"....and the dodgy work gets done.......

 

[Colonel Hathi]

Thanks Grantr37
I agree with you - an d I will stick to my guns on this I think.
It still surprises me though that - nothing in the regs themselves seems to state specifically that we should only fix to permanent structures (or bury).
Cheers
CH

 

[malcolmsanford]

Would have to be pretty determined animal to damage a SWA by chewing at it, and as the SWA should be earthed it should be quite safe.

 

[somersetsparks]

Whilst I see Grantr37's point we are talking SWA, If it was a new panel fence, even better with concrete posts, I would be happy to clip to it, after all people are happy clipping flexes and twin and earth to walls and not worrying about it?

On the other hand if it was arotten picket fence I would probably say no, bury it.

 

[High Tower]

I've clipped short runs to concrete fence posts and gravel boards before now, they arnt going anywhere!

Problem is that if you clip to a wooden fence post and NOT the horizontal arris rail, unless you start bolting cleats through the flimsy panel then most fence posts are 6' apart which exceeds the max permissible distance for cleats

 

[KEVINDOE]

I have clipped direct to a "secure" fence many times, including niceic assesment jobs, i always use s.w.a, and i also try to keep it as low down as poss.

 

[malcolmsanford]

It is entirely down the the designer/installer and that much abused method of 'risk assment". If the designer believes that the fence is of a construction to securely fix the SWA to, and is in a good condition then there is nothing to stop you clipping to a fence.

 

[andyb]

If a Farm Animal or a pet dog gets killed chewing/scratching itself on a cable on a fence, you will get the blame and sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an Adult gets hurt, you will get sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an adult gets killed you will get sued for millions and banned from working in a trade, and maybe a year in Jail....If a child gets hurt, you will go to Jail for probably 3 or 4 years and get sued for millions, if a kid was to get a shock and die, they would put you away for maybe 15 years, sue you for/fine you millions of pounds and go after all your immediate familys assets and property as well, and your whole life would be ruined and basically over.....then in jail they would probably end up doing you in.


heres a silly example......*Customer*"I want you to put a supply to my caravan from that shed.......I want it in this stuff....(shows a reel of speaker wire)....heres the stuff"........which we would say "No thats dangerous it should be done with this and that".......(customer thinks- thats too expensive).....asks a cowboy.......cowboy says "twenny quid"....and the dodgy work gets done.......

What would a farm animal be doing in someones back garden?
If you are worried about a pet dog chewing through armoured cable then you must be having some sleepless nights worrying about all the flex to appliances in the houses you have wired that have dogs. The same applies to adults & children being hurt.

I think you look at each installation separately, there are some rickety old fences you wouldn't touch, but a well built fence with the cable properly installed & protected should be ok.

As for the speaker cable, I would of thought that 79 strand would be ok.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I would have thought there would be a few comments from Health and safety people if they seen a mains cable clipped along a fence, something along the lines of Electric Fence.....what happens if a cow/sheep or even a dog chews through it....or a kid or adult climbs over the fence and splits it, I personally wouldnt put any electricity cables insulated or otherwise anywhere near the easy reach of anybody...

If a Farm Animal or a pet dog gets killed chewing/scratching itself on a cable on a fence, you will get the blame and sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an Adult gets hurt, you will get sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an adult gets killed you will get sued for millions and banned from working in a trade, and maybe a year in Jail....If a child gets hurt, you will go to Jail for probably 3 or 4 years and get sued for millions, if a kid was to get a shock and die, they would put you away for maybe 15 years, sue you for/fine you millions of pounds and go after all your immediate familys assets and property as well, and your whole life would be ruined and basically over.....then in jail they would probably end up doing you in.


leave them to it, to put a cable along a fence(made from metal wire/mesh) at waist height, they just want to take any work that others are not keen on doing, even if it is blatantly dangerous and/or illegal....right where people (particularly kids) can climb on it, it can be subject to chewing by animals and movement/damage from other causes...and may end up exposing live conductors and also making a length of the fence live...

You were right to refuse to do it, I would also have chosen to bury the cable, the problem is that a lot of customers go round different tradesmen until they hear what they want to hear(which is that it will be done dirt cheap) its a case of "well I think that it can be done this way and I say so" to which the reply is either "thats dangerous-count me out" or "certainly, definately".....they go with the second response, then they ask for a discount for cash....and blame the sparky if anything goes wrong...


heres a silly example......*Customer*"I want you to put a supply to my caravan from that shed.......I want it in this stuff....(shows a reel of speaker wire)....heres the stuff"........which we would say "No thats dangerous it should be done with this and that".......(customer thinks- thats too expensive).....asks a cowboy.......cowboy says "twenny quid"....and the dodgy work gets done.......

Quite frankly this it complete testicles...probably one of the least helpful posts I've seen on this forum...you would never expose an electric cable to people??....well then half the flaming country is highly dangerous......and what if you bury the cable and someone digs it up?....minimum life sentence by your scale of punishments.
An SWA clipped along a fence WITH CONSIDERATION OF EXTERNAL INFUENCES is no more hazardous than an SWA installed any other way....of course anyone with half a brain cell would not install a cable where it would be liable to interference from livestock...BUT,that does not mean that ALL SWA's clipped direct to a fence are dangerous....

 

[domestic spark]

Yes what a stupid post! I would without a doubt cleat armoured to a fence that was I'n GOOD condition! Very over the top post I think, not needed as an input, that's all I have to say on this post! Hope this clears things up mate!