Discuss overheard conversation re 3phase working in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

mhar

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3 people were discussing scheme membership and insurance and it sounded like eiher 'domestic installers,' or their insurance, does not cover work on 3 phase installations.
Some 6 months ago I was informed that all WPD supplies to new properties are to be 3 phase and this is now what is being planned for (presumeably because of the fact that gas is no longer going to be supplied to new estates + car charging etc).
Is this going to restrict who can work on new builds or are bodies such as the niciec going to have to allow their short course members to be let loose on pretty much anything?
 
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telectrix

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a lot of insurers don't cover for 3 phase on PL policies, or they will charge extra premium. same with tools cover. most are happy to charge for tools cover, but when you read the small print, they are not covered on van between 9pm and 6am. i made sure my policy covered both aforementioned scenarios. just for info, i'm with insurance octopus and they were by far the best price for the cover provided.
 

snowhead

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Just because DNO are installing 3ph supplies doesn't mean all houses will be connected as 3 ph.
It will be WPD future proofing their own network, a lot of which is well over 70 years old.
And of course the Customer / Developer will have to pay the extra for the cable and cut-out.

And I'm sure all the Bodies could come up with a 3ph training / assessment course if their was anything to be gained from it.
 

telectrix

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if the niceic have anything to do with that, you'll need to go on a course , 3 days, entailing 3 tutors. red tutor/yellow tutor/blue tutor.
oh bugger. they all leopard changed spots, brown,black and summat else. all grey little men in suits. say bye-bye to another few hundred squids..
 

littlespark

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There will be a 3 phase head, but I don't think there will be 3 phase meters going in.
Domestic installers will still be only working on single phase installations, as domestic equipment is still only 230v design voltage.

It would be too much to change something like that considering a lot of members of the public still insist on doing their own electrical work. Can't expect them to realise theres 400v present.

Can you link where this info comes from? re no gas supplies... it could be interesting reading
 
S

Squid

What’s so special about 3 phase? It’s still just just low voltage and already in loads of domestic installations
There is 3 Phase and real 3 Phase with switchgear hydraulic/non hydraulic etc etc the size of a small house.
 
There will be a 3 phase head, but I don't think there will be 3 phase meters going in.
Domestic installers will still be only working on single phase installations, as domestic equipment is still only 230v design voltage.

It would be too much to change something like that considering a lot of members of the public still insist on doing their own electrical work. Can't expect them to realise theres 400v present.

Can you link where this info comes from? re no gas supplies... it could be interesting reading
Loads of houses already have 3 phase supply/meters/DB.
In large houses where the electrical demand is more than 80/100A the only real option is 3 phase to split the load.

With the idea of 2+ electric cars being plugged into the supply at 5PM, then the electrical demand is going to go up, and possibly 3 phase car chargers could become the norm?


I find it hard to believe someone can call themselves an electrician, and not be competent with a basic 3 phase supply and board.....
 
T

Toneyz

Just because DNO are installing 3ph supplies doesn't mean all houses will be connected as 3 ph.
It will be WPD future proofing their own network, a lot of which is well over 70 years old.
And of course the Customer / Developer will have to pay the extra for the cable and cut-out.

And I'm sure all the Bodies could come up with a 3ph training / assessment course if their was anything to be gained from it.
WHAT MONEY!!!!!!!!!!
 

littlespark

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Any electrician, Electrical Trainee or not will understand the 230 line to neutral and 400 phase to phase....The general public may not understand, and it is a big change if it comes around for the majority of domestic installations.

So gas boilers and jobs are on the way out?
Should I cut my gas off now and go all electric?
 

ruston

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[QUOTE="littlespark,

So gas boilers and jobs are on the way out?
Should I cut my gas off now and go all electric?[/QUOTE]
The amount of wood burning stoves going in around here I think they may have a bit of competition. There is rumours that COAL is being burnt on some of them. Remember that? :)
 
T

Toneyz

Loads of houses already have 3 phase supply/meters/DB.
In large houses where the electrical demand is more than 80/100A the only real option is 3 phase to split the load.

With the idea of 2+ electric cars being plugged into the supply at 5PM, then the electrical demand is going to go up, and possibly 3 phase car chargers could become the norm?


I find it hard to believe someone can call themselves an electrician, and not be competent with a basic 3 phase supply and board.....
I think that technology will be that using GPS etc the charging point will be turned on during dips/off-peak in a geographical area so a steady area load on the network is maintained.
 
T

Toneyz

a lot of insurers don't cover for 3 phase on PL policies, or they will charge extra premium. same with tools cover. most are happy to charge for tools cover, but when you read the small print, they are not covered on van between 9pm and 6am. i made sure my policy covered both aforementioned scenarios. just for info, i'm with insurance octopus and they were by far the best price for the cover provided.
Also Tel you only get the value of the tools at the time they were stolen.
 

PEG

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So what special ticket does one need,to purchase 400v between phases stickers? :)

....Oh,and don't forget,the big plan of having this network of charging vehicles,being digitally brought in to use,as a giant back-up,for the grid...

Can hardly wait for all those calls to employers...."I won't be in to work,today,because Amazon's servers needed help,last night,and me cars flat..." :rolleyes:
 

PEG

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So what special ticket does one need,to purchase 400v between phases stickers? :)

....Oh,and don't forget,the big plan of having this network of charging vehicles,being digitally brought in to use,as a giant back-up,for the grid...

Can hardly wait for all those calls to employers...."I won't be in to work,today,because Amazon's servers needed help,last night,and me cars flat..." :rolleyes:
 

freddo

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I thought the no gas thing was just for central heating. I wouldn't want to be without a gas hob, electric hobs suck!
 

rapparee

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What’s so special about 3 phase? It’s still just just low voltage and already in loads of domestic installations
Would you really let a Electrical Trainee loose on a 3 phase installation.

What if someone who doesn't know what they are doing interconnects two ring circuits on different phases.
 

Charlie_

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Would you really let a Electrical Trainee loose on a 3 phase installation.

What if someone who doesn't know what they are doing interconnects two ring circuits on different phases.
There are thousands of domestic 3phase installations out there..

I have no concern for those that are incompetent, they are carrying out work all the time at their own risk..
and unfortunately at the risk of others.
Whether it’s 3 phase or not..

If someone is stupid enough to cross phases over 2 circuits then they are capable of getting live conductors and earths mixed up too..

An insurance company should be asking for proof of electrical qualifications, experience, etc and then provide insurance accordingly..
 

TJ Anderson

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What if someone who doesn't know what they are doing interconnects two ring circuits on different phases.
Then a large current will flow and the OCPD'S will operate. There are loads of people in commercial and industrial maintenance who don't really know what they are doing too!! :)
 
I thought the no gas thing was just for central heating. I wouldn't want to be without a gas hob, electric hobs suck!
As I understand it, the proposal is that new builds will not be allowed to connect to the gas grid from 2025 onwards.
I believe that the Dutch have already implemented such a scheme.
I think I may have read something about provisions for gas supply using bottled gas where required for hobs. Such arrangements are common in the middle east. likely elsewhere.
 
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I read that the future planning is intended to support Air/Ground source heating, Induction hubs and three phase EV charging.
I wouldn't be surprised to see kitchens on one phase, heating on another phase, other circuits on third phase - charging using all phases. I could see some sense in the DNO specifying which of those should connect to which phase for district load balancing purposes ....perhaps that's too organised!
 
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freddo

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They do realise that a huge chunk of UK electricity is generated by burning gas, don't they?!
 
charging using all phases. I could see some sense in the DNO specifying which of those should connect to which phase for district load balancing purposes ....perhaps that's too organised!
Unfortunately FUN (Flexible Urban Networks) has been ditched after a three year trial around the London embankment area. Too expensive!


The idea was sound, automatically linking overloaded sections of the LV network to under loaded sections via inverter panels or remote controlled UG link boxes. Transformer A is overloaded, transformers B and C have spare capacity. Using FUN loads can be shifted around to even things out. Bear in mind UKPN transformers will stand 125% summer or 150% winter overload for limited times.


Start chucking EV chargers in to the equation and something is going to go BANG!
 

mhar

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
....Oh,and don't forget,the big plan of having this network of charging vehicles,being digitally brought in to use,as a giant back-up,for the grid...

Can hardly wait for all those calls to employers...."I won't be in to work,today,because Amazon's servers needed help,last night,and me cars flat..." :rolleyes:
 

mhar

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #31
Whilst that reply is quite funny, there are all sorts of options being investigated, this being a part of one of them.

If we are having trouble getting new nuclear power stations built even with offering staggering guarantees on resale unit pricing, and gas is a diminishing resource that is imported, then demand management and storage are two of the prominent options.

One vision regarding 'the internet of things' relates to demand management (which is already crudely used in industry, some supply agreements can regulate demand). Internet enabled devices may be controlled by smart meters so that demand can be reduced at peak times.

Storage is already an issue with people with pv panels looking to store the energy they produce. As battery technology improves, having millions of batteries in cars is going to be a reality that could be exploited in demand management, probably not to the extent as outlined by PEG though!

Most people are of the opinion that current smart meters are pretty pointless. They are very unlikely to achieve their advertised function of saving the customer money, they offer some savings to the supply companies though. However, if future smart meters can be used to manage demand then their introduction would be cost effective as it may reduce the need for new generation.
 
gas is a diminishing resource that is imported

Most people are of the opinion that current smart meters are pretty pointless. They are very unlikely to achieve their advertised function of saving the customer money, they offer some savings to the supply companies though. However, if future smart meters can be used to manage demand then their introduction would be cost effective as it may reduce the need for new generation.
Of course, if shale gas extraction ever gets going in a substantial way in the UK, that may give us more gas independence for a time ....we'll see.

As for, so called, 'smart meters', that whole thing is a mess. Short sighted in having failed to include a master isolator and being unable to accommodate a change of supplier at the outset and lacking metering for on-site generation. Then, of course, having previously encouraged electricity consumers to install consumption monitors, which has, likely, already encouraged those who are interested to modify consumption an/or gradually replace electrical devices with more efficient alternatives ....you have to question who then benefits from the smart meters being installed, at the consumer's cost. From the outset I always considered that smart meters were going to benefit the supplier the most, firstly by removing on-site meter readings from the equation and then through peak time metering costs. Thus far, I've declined offers of smart meters ....maybe the time will come where suppliers decide to incentivise their uptake.
 

PEG

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This "internet of things supply management" twaddle,is more expanded terminology which equates to nowt.

How are they going to manage the hierarchy of need?

Meters which limit current? ...that sounds problematic...

Switching of remotely? ...mmm,better not have a fridge,freezer,medical device or light on a dark stairway...

No,this changing of the way our future energy short-comings are dealt with,will NOT start,with some pushy,northern actress,repeatedly whining made-up rubbish,to get folk signed up,for a Shart Meter...

....and those that know what a shart is,know also,the above is not a spelling error ;)
 

ruston

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This "internet of things supply management" twaddle,is more expanded terminology which equates to nowt.

How are they going to manage the hierarchy of need?

Meters which limit current? ...that sounds problematic...

Switching of remotely? ...mmm,better not have a fridge,freezer,medical device or light on a dark stairway...

No,this changing of the way our future energy short-comings are dealt with,will NOT start,with some pushy,northern actress,repeatedly whining made-up rubbish,to get folk signed up,for a Shart Meter...

..ad t..hose nthat know what a shart is,know also,the above is not a spelling error ;)
Is it that escaped involuntary prisoner that you referred to in to in a previous post? ;)
 
How are they going to manage the hierarchy of need?
'Cost' seems to be the answer to some extent - charge more at peak times and use that to encourage the willing to bump their consumption to a lower demand time. Of course, there's a limit to the number of applications which can be shuffled around in such a manner but high consumption devices like washing machines and dishwashers could be run over-night.
 
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Reply to overheard conversation re 3phase working in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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