Ownership of the supply earth

[sparc]

Does anyone know if there is a definitive answer on who can do what, who is expected to do what, with regards to the supply earth?

I'm getting conflicting stories from two neighbouring suppliers on this, so I'm wondering if it comes down to their own policies, or they're interpreting a national policy in different ways.

Specifically, in one circumstance with a TNS supply the Ze reading was awful, but the supplier told the customer it was the electrician's job to PME or TT the supply - no testing done or offered by them.

In another circumstance where there is a lousy Ze of an earth spike, the suppliers says they will assess whether it can be PME's, then its sparks job to do it, if it is - or presumable convert to TT if it can't be PME'ed.

Can anyone shed some clarity on this please?

 

[Knobhead]

Have a look at http://www.sppowersystems.co.uk/new...3 - Low Voltage Earthing Policy and Appl..pdf

Be warned it’s like wading through cold porridge. (It is from Scottish Power).

 

[spark 68]

As far as I was aware (but could be wrong), if the supplier supplies the Earth (TN system), then they have a duty to maintain it under ESQCR regs, if it is a TT then it is the client/sparks duty to maintain it.

section 114 BGB

 

[IQ Electrical]

As far as I was aware (but could be wrong), if the supplier supplies the Earth (TN system), then they have a duty to maintain it under ESQCR regs, if it is a TT then it is the client/sparks duty to maintain it.

section 114 BGB

That's it really, I have NEVER in many years heard of a supplier instructing a contractor to 'PME a supply'-this often involves a service head change etc.-maybe the supplier was talking about the contractor upgrading/installing main protective bonding prior to PME being made available?

 

[spark 68]

Thanks IQ,

I thought that was the case, but with the many changes/re-wording (AMD1 etc.) I wondered if this was still the case, or if the DNO's had managed to 'weasel out' of their responsibilities (nothing would suprise me anymore).

 

[GT1]

I had cause recently to consider telling a little white lie to the DNO about a TNS I wasnt happy with. In the end I sorted it myself as it wasnt as big an issue as i first thought. However, it was clear when speaking to the DNO that they are pretty much only geared up for immediate work ie call-out.. or obvious repairs to their gear. Everything is chargeable.
If i had needed to call them out I was fully prepared to state there was no continuity from their earthing strap from the sheath to the actual sheath itself, and therefore dangerous as no earth fault return path.

On the other hand I had a service head replaced by DNO subbies (old gear and mineral oil leached out of it) , who did a great job, no discussions, and put me some 25 mil and 100amp main fuse in..
So I think once you get past the admin staff at the office, your sorted.

 

[needasparks]

I thought they were only responsable to maintain if it was available only.
I found this out when I assumed a TN-S was installed by DNO but someone in the past had put a clamp on it. I tested and found really poor reading but they said the whole street was TT and had been for years. eventually they PME'd it for me as the reading was boarder line. The lead sheath jobbie had been jointed so many times in the street it had lost any earth connection and was not concidered for repair. But then iv'e had loads of run in's over the years and you get a different answer each time.

 

[sparc]

Thanks for this Tony.

Have a look at http://www.sppowersystems.co.uk/newc...nd Appl..pdf

Be warned it’s like wading through cold porridge. (It is from Scottish Power).

I started to look through then realised my brain is already too fried today to make any sense of it - I will try again over the weekend!

In another job in the last week I opened up the cut-out in order to upgrade the main earth from there to CU with a 16mm2, which I put in via a MET. I wasn't sure whether I should do that, but the only other options was to write it up in the EIC as not being the correct size. If they drag me to court I'll argue the system is safer after I left it. I had to leave the tails at 16mm2 because the meter was the type with only a single
seal, so no access to tails without breaking the seal.

In yet another job a couple of weeks backl the DNO spark had to fix the cut-out before I started work. He removed the old 10mm2 earth, but then found he had no 16mm2 on the van so put in two 10mms - and asked me to upgrade it to 16mm when I went to change the CU!

So it seems like the whole thing is a bit of a minefield, with new clear map through .....

 

[oldtimer]

Ok here is my thoughts if it is a TNS and it is a poor earth the DNO will tell you they are not responsable for supplying an earth but for a "small" charge they will put one in for you if the turn up and cannot get an earth they PME it and still charge you in other words you pay either way. A TT system you spike it . I f you call them to say there is no earth and they ask what is the reading and is it RCD protected then they will come in their own time if not then they will call in a couple of days.

Now my theory is and there seems to be a lot of it being highlighted people are finding they have no earth this I believe because the guy next door upgrades his house or the water or gas company run plastic pipes from the mains in the street into the house why is this a problem you ask well when the replaced the mains pipework in plastic they never touched the supply pipes that ran in the owners property ie from pavement to house (until recently) ie I live in a block of 4 staggered terrace houses so say one of the houses may never had an earth but because of the earthing of these pipes in each house it was never noticed because all 4 houses earthed each other because they all T eed off each other on the property side or in other words the house affected borrowed or shared an earth the the pipework ie "Electrically and Mechanically sound" (14th edition) Now last year BG turned up to say we are going to fit your gas meter outside as we are running no mains supply from the pavement to the house In Plastic so now E&M sound no longer applies and they put a card through your house telling you to get it and check the earth. Why they cannot do this is beyond me. So 2 years later you come along to fit a new CU and find there is no earth now your thinking OMG this house has never had an earth . Nope it just means that the house lost its borrowed or shared earth a couple of years ago.

Now this is my theory please feel free to shoot it full of holes

I forgot to add that these faults are now being found because when I&T you seperate the gas and water earths from the main earth and thats when you find a high Ze

 

[timo1]

Im glad this topic has come up. I may get a rewire whereby the building is a 1953 building and all the wiring and service fuse is original. the tails that go into the meter appear to be rubberised and part of the fuse carrier has wooden blocks. system is a tns at presnt and I advised that the DNO should look at it and replace with a modern unit ans hopefully PME the supply. Would this be likely and free to the consumer? Im thinking that the demand on the system today would be much higher than in the 50's!!

Sorry cant figure how to upload photos from my iphone to the site to show.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well the chap i work for has had no end of crap from DNO's in the past about whether its their responsibility....or not....back n forth....to n fro....

 

[WPD Lad]

If we've given you a DNO earth on a TNS then we're obliged to maintain it, if it's a dodgy jubilee clip a spark has put on then they'll either deny responsibility or charge you for a proper one or PME.

 

[Engineer54]

If we've given you a DNO earth on a TNS then we're obliged to maintain it, if it's a dodgy jubilee clip a spark has put on then they'll either deny responsibility or charge you for a proper one or PME.

Errrr..... We've had posts on this forum, that many a DNO Electrician has made earth connections to the lead sheath using jubilee clips!!! And now they a frightened to remove them for fear of shorting the line conductors!!
So much for experienced DNO staff. ...lol!!!

 

[timo1]

Here are some pictures of the set up I was hoping to replace.

 

[oldtimer]

View attachment 11042View attachment 11043 Here are some pictures of the set up I was hoping to replace.

I see the guy who changed the meter wrote 1-2-3-4 on the cables now why does this tell me you should get an electrician to to work in your house but the DNO does not when it comes to meter changes

 

[timo1]

I see the guy who changed the meter wrote 1-2-3-4 on the cables now why does this tell me you should get an electrician to to work in your house but the DNO does not when it comes to meter changes

The numbering is for an economy 7 system which needs to be removed. I cant see how the DNO would keep it there is only one 1G socket in each room and one pendant so demand would have been really low. House itself would be a dream to work in though, empty and floorboards!! I love floorboards...

 

[oldtimer]

The numbering is for an economy 7 system which needs to be removed. I cant see how the DNO would keep it there is only one 1G socket in each room and one pendant so demand would have been really low. House itself would be a dream to work in though, empty and floorboards!! I love floorboards...

They keep it there because the customer has to pay the standing charge for the tarrif in other words money for nothing

 

[IQ Electrical]

They keep it there because the customer has to pay the standing charge for the tarrif in other words money for nothing

And often a higher day rate too!

 

[oldtimer]

Done a job last month where the customer had 3 supplies Normal,Off Peak & Night only to find out that he has been in the flat for 20 years and they never let on that the Off Peak has not been getting used so nice money if you can get it plus multiply this accross the rest of the country and it keeps the figures up.

 

[WPD Lad]

Errrr..... We've had posts on this forum, that many a DNO Electrician has made earth connections to the lead sheath using jubilee clips!!! And now they a frightened to remove them for fear of shorting the line conductors!!
So much for experienced DNO staff. ...lol!!!

What? Did you read my post at all? I've not said the DNOs don't make earthing connections with jubilee clips! I know we do, but we also strip back the steel tapes and remove the pitch/clean up the lead then make a decent connection to the lead! I was on about a "dodgy" electricians mock up.

Who's frightened to remove them? Where have I even mentioned that?