Discuss Part P...how i hate thee... in the Industrial Electrician Talk area at ElectriciansForums.net

R

RABEC

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Just a quick question to all the qualified electricians out there...who would lke that only fully trained and qualified foilk can work on electrical circuits...as in only those who are fully certed and registered can work as an electrician.
I would like to see a driving license style card to say you are fully qualified and trained and that only holders of these card can work on circuits.
a way to get rid of sooo many unqualified monkeys who calls themselves electricians..and as for the ones who arn't fully qualified and working as a sparx...the only alternative is to become fully trained and certed like the rest of us.

A bit heavy for my first post...but i would be intersted how many would agree,so maybe if enough of a voice is heard then changes can be made.

On top of that....Hi everybody..the site looks great!!!!!
 
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R

rumrunner

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  • #2
-------s:p,if you do that shake will be out of a job ;),i wont i do what i like anyway:)so consider the way it is ,guys with little experiance ,come along with a part p qualification and expect to decide who is entitled to do the work ,its a hard life pall,and with work as scarse as it is going to become ,its going to be doggie eat dogge soon
,im at a disadvantage ,im so good and quick at my job ,i need more work than the part p guys ,i say get rid of any form of qualifications ,and lets have a free for all,who will win then?:):):)
yippy yi yay
 
W

wayne

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
part p came about because the bodies like niceic didnt get the house in order ,too many dodgy installations and no proper testing .not enough accountability ,just do the job ,take the money and dissappear .so if your jobs tougher.....
 
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rumrunner

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  • #4
The niceic is just a club you pay to join ,why should they get there house in order ,they have no legistive power

,cowboys exist in every trade ,local tradeing standards,should regulate it ,if someone does a rough job ,or rips someone off ,thats there job!

i personally dont do either,im not part p qualified,but ive got a JIB card ,if its not up to date or valied why dont they ask for it back?
 
W

wayne

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  • #5
nobody or club was putting the house in order,cowboys should be stopped not tolerated
as for your card why should they ask for it back try if you were to try and use it for its proper purpose you'd probably find its refused cards these days have health and safety affilition
 
B

Bane

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  • #6
*Strolls in*

"Did someone say cowboy?"
 
A

alan

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  • #7
I'm part p, but those who thing that it has stopped the cowboys must be on cloud 9.
All it has achieved is the law abiding people are paying more for the jobs.
I was talking to a fire chief when I took my course, and I asked him how many fire incidences have been reduced since part p. He said take no notice of that, they put down electrical if they are not sure. And the guy taking course advised us not to go to certain areas because the houses are connected to the lamp post. And those Gypsies who set up camp in a day were connected to the mains. I wonder how many certificates they have.
 
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R

rumrunner

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  • #8
i resent the fact that any electrician without part bloody p ,must be a cowboy,
part p is just a scam to make money for those who dont like physical work,
if anyone does a job neglegently ,they should get done,i wonder how many part p merchants really know what there doing?
oh ,and when im on site wayne ,nobody would decide to throw me off ,because my cards 20 years out of date,its all a big blag ,to get you all to go to collage,buy loads of new tools and join the system,like i told you its -------s
xxx
 

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Shakey

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  • #9
Just a quick question to all the qualified electricians out there...who would lke that only fully trained and qualified foilk can work on electrical circuits...as in only those who are fully certed and registered can work as an electrician.
I would like to see a driving license style card to say you are fully qualified and trained and that only holders of these card can work on circuits.
a way to get rid of sooo many unqualified monkeys who calls themselves electricians..and as for the ones who arn't fully qualified and working as a sparx...the only alternative is to become fully trained and certed like the rest of us.

A bit heavy for my first post...but i would be intersted how many would agree,so maybe if enough of a voice is heard then changes can be made.

On top of that....Hi everybody..the site looks great!!!!!
here we go again

so what do you call a 'qualified electrician' then?,

what is regarded as 'fully trained'?

and what is 'fully certed and registered'?

how much experience have you got my friend? whats your in-depth electrical knowledge like? how long you been 'in the game'

because i have a feeling your reply will put me in your category of 'unqualified monkey'

only this 'monkey' has been knocking around this game for the best part of 25 years

I teach domestic installers, wiring regs,2391 & 2392 inspection and testing and 2377 PAT testing

i have taught electrical engineering up to ONC level

I was teaching PAT testing YEARS before C&G 2377 was brought out

I was testing mobile and temporary installations and mobile units 20 years before the IET decided to include them in the 17th edition

I have been there, and on quite a few occasions, done that

so i will be interested in your reply, my friend

meanwhile i will be the one sitting in the corner going "ooo, ooo", scratiching myself and eating bananas:mad:
 
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R

rumrunner

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  • #10
ive sent you a pic. to use for your avatar shake:D
 

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Shakey

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  • #11
ive sent you a pic. to use for your avatar shake:D
yep, thats me Rum!:p

i would also be interested in which 'circuits' the chap is referring to that only 'qualified' people can work on

worked on a 1Mw genny a while ago, that had quite a few circuits on

and the industrial photographic processing systems, i'm sure they had circuits too

and the load sensing and warning systems on the cranes i repaired, they were circuits

the AVR and protection unit circuits i used to teat and repair using an oscilloscope, yep you guessed it - circuits

oh, and the star delta starters, three phase resisitance starters, invertors, soft starters, etc etc - all circuits

PLC controls, industrial robotics, all circuit ridden

temporary three phase distribution systems, i designed installed, tested and inspected, including the gennys and all distribuiton circuits - yep, all had circuits

i could go on and on

'course i am not a real sparks, just an untrained monkey (with more qualifications that you can shake a stick at):mad:
 
W

wayne

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
EVERYONE CALM DOWN!!!!
rum,experience counts not having part p or up to date cards does not make you a cowboy
shakey,i know your frustration,surely you know what i think of the jib ,niceic do you think with regards the 17th i want to shell out money on an exam on a subject i already know about oh and you can add C&G to the sh*t list
 
C

Cirrus

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  • #13
Jeez - sure answers some Q's about you RR!:D
 
R

RABEC

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  • #14
Hmm,all i meant was..i wish all electricians were qualified...you wouldn't go to an unqualified doctor..so why's our job different?
Part P is daft...i aint bothered if one is part p registered or not as such..just that to be a sparky..be trained as one thats all...
sorry if anyone got the wrong end of the stick or got upset.
oh and i am fully qualified to the hilt and have 13 years experience which isnt as much as some..but not too shabby niether tho!
and maybe the full moon theory could be something to do with it all too...been feeling ****ed off all day!
 
R

rumrunner

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
hi rabec
Welcome to the forum,healthy debate should be encouraged,;)
the electrical industrys history,is riddled with differences of opinion ,thats how it evolved,if it wasnt for voltas argument with galvanni we wouldnt have ohms law ;)

if it wasnt for shakey and others like him,we wouldnt have a forum,so although "we" know hes not a "real sparky", without him were stuffed,so lets just pretend we dont know;)

we have deduced that part p isnt the answer to the industrys problems ,and all i can suggest is we as skilled men do our work to the absolute best of our abillity and hold our heads high and have pride,in our work:cool:

our reputation will then spread throughout the land and we will all live happy ever after.:)
 
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Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
Hmm,all i meant was..i wish all electricians were qualified...you wouldn't go to an unqualified doctor..so why's our job different?
Part P is daft...i aint bothered if one is part p registered or not as such..just that to be a sparky..be trained as one thats all...
sorry if anyone got the wrong end of the stick or got upset.
oh and i am fully qualified to the hilt and have 13 years experience which isnt as much as some..but not too shabby niether tho!
and maybe the full moon theory could be something to do with it all too...been feeling ****ed off all day!
Hi

but you still havent stated what you mean by 'qualified':confused:

and there something like 43 seperate categories of trades that can call themselves electricians

the problem being that the term 'electrician' is not a protected term like 'Doctor' is

there are clearly defined routes and academic hurdles to acheieve to use the term doctor.

And unlike 'doctor', WE can pick it up as we go along

I dont have 2330 or any other L3 'installation specific' qualification

and in the eyes of people like the ECA, JIB, NICEIC I am not an electrician

and i have no doubt that in your eyes i wont be one too

but i am highly qualified and experienced in the electrical industry

taught a 2391 student a while ago

he had previuosly been taught by the mighty Brian Scaddonn (him who writes all the text books you use when you do your college course)

anyway, the lad failed with Scaddonn's course

I took him on 2391, and he says to me that he learned more with me in two days than he learned with a week with the 'master' who wrote the book

Kind words, and i get similar accolades from students - all based on my levels of skill, knowledge and experience

but heres the question - would you let me rewire your house as an 'unqualified' sparks?:rolleyes:
 
R

rumrunner

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
This "qualified"thing works the other way as well ,i many moons ago got a job installing machines in a large saw mill, whilst i was doing it, the maintenance sparks quit, so they gave me his job as well.
now at the tender age of 23 all i knew about was installation work,i knew 3 wires went to a motor,and i knew you had a starter,and that was about it!
so although i had my c&g qualifications ,they wernt much good.
somehow,after a steap learning curve,and a bit of help from the guy who came into look after the compressors,i learned enough to keep the factory going,not only that but installed a 600 amp bus bar and wired in a load of machines,a large 90hp extractor fan,,
learned hydrolics and pneumatics and welding,orderd stock and organised the removal of a compleate factory full of machines,which had gone bust.
After about 3 years i left there and got a position with a very well known coumpany as an
Electrical maintenance enginner,
Now ,i wasnt an enginner .but i was the best man for the job ,so they set me on .
After a few years there i was so confident ,i moved to Scotland and ended up working as a charge hand in the oil industry.
now,after all that and about another 15 years contracting,including running my own buisiness twice,going bust twice ,wiring houses on the side to feed the baby,mending cars in the gutter,all that crap,i landed a job as Electrical Enginner with a large PLC.
i was certainly not qualified to do that job ,i didnt and still dont have the 16 edition,i didnt have time to even study for it untill last year ,but my head blew off after 3 lessons,and i just couldnt care less,bad attitue i know ,the class was full of plumbers ,and there was even a painter there,i think its because ive learned everything i know on site,ive trained plenty of lads up ,and worked with some of the very best electricians in the country,and ive got a good agent who doesnt care what qualifications ive got.
My jib cards 20 years out of date ,i havent got a forklift or picker licence,who cares ,no one i work for seems to!
As long as you are getting the job done and everyone is making some dosh,who really cares?
But i guess im not qualified either shake.
all the best everyone
 
E

EasyFox

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
Oh my.............. glad I was out last night.

I took him on 2391, and he says to me that he learned more with me in two days than he learned with a week with the 'master' who wrote the book
The difference is shakey going by your posts here, you are able to put the whole lot into laymans terms opposed to scaddonn's writings that are well mind boggling at times.

A sound point was made by the lecturer on the 2382 update course I attended a week ago. A big thing is now being made of the word "Competent" by certain sectors that wright the big red book as opposed to qualified.

This is the senario he gave

first bloke been in the game 100 years has all the qualls you could hope for 2330/2360/2391 blah blah.

second bloke wants to change from a circus rodeo act & become an electrician & has just completed night school & gets a pass in all exam results on the friday for C&G2330 . He now gets up monday morning and is in the eyes of joe public a fully qualified electrician, who is expected to know everything from circuit design to testing.

Who is the most competent to trade/work as an electrician? , what he was getting at is.. just because you are qualified doesnt mean you can competently do the job.. that comes with experience....

Or asking shakey's advice here :D (genny rod sorted cheers mate ;)).

He also went on to say that in his view he thinks the change to the 2391 is probably the first step in defining electrician types such as : domestic / commercial / industrial / maint
& will eventually lead in the future to defined scope electricians across the whole industry & not just part P registered sparks.

Another bit of info he gave out " did you know that 2 of the bods on the 17th regs board, are also head honcho's at MK".....that was while we were discussing the use of rcd's/rcbo's. Dont know how true that is but makes you think dont it.
 
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Spudmiester

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
I dont have a part p certificate because I dont bash houses. Personally I would rather stick my head in the gas oven than rip up floorboards , move furniture, and scrat around in the fiberglass filled loft. No thanks.

Have however got C&G qualifications, and have spent the last 18 years designing and building control systems for anything from animal feed plants , food factorys, and water treatment works. Perhaps I should wire somthing up to automaticaly feed me banannas, cos I must be a monkey as well !

As someone at the water authaurity once said ' housebashers are plumbers with they're brains removed'
 
M

MacSparky

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  • #20
I think your being a bit harsh against the housebashers out there spudmeister:confused: i personally prefer the 'domestic installer' title as some of us actually tidy up and make good after woods leading to good referalls, 'not bash':mad:.......INSTALL!!:p
 
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Shakey

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  • #21
I think your being a bit harsh against the housebashers out there spudmeister:confused: i personally prefer the 'domestic installer' title as some of us actually tidy up and make good after woods leading to good referalls, 'not bash':mad:.......INSTALL!!:p
Mac, its horses for courses aint it!

what we are getting from this is that there is a wealth of diverse experience out there

some of that experience is backed up with quals, some isnt

and some experience is backed up with quals, but because those quals dont fit into the little 'boxes' set up by the 'proper sparks' brigade, then they are invalid

this should not be a 'i can [email protected] higher than you' contest

but the original line of this thread suggested that people like me should not be allowed to [email protected] at all:mad:

lets just accept that not everyone sat the 2330 or equivalent at 18 and spent the next 20 yrs changing CU's and doing rewires

BUT:

because you didnt go down that route, shouldnt mean that your experience and abilities prevent you from doing work that is well within your capabilities

(or buying the consumables to do that work, Easyfox my old pal;))

and there, your honour, I rest my case;)
 
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Spudmiester

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  • #22
Perhaps it was a bit harsh.......Towards plumbers !
 
R

RABEC

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  • #23
I do agree shakey,if the job can be done well and by a fully knowledgeable person then part p and the like and the certs shouldnt play too much..alot of the old boys out there havent this stuff but fully know their stuff.
I was more on about the guys that get up one morning and decide to be an electrician and do this course buy a van and become the same as the rest of us with no knowledge of the job or experience.
I know of a few folk who have set up with really limited knowledge who dont know how to test,don't know three phase or two way switching or boiler wiring etc and cant work off an electrical wiring diagram.
yet the law never catches these guys...and now some are protected by part p.
i agree if you know the job then ok...but there are so many out there trading unsafe.
but i guess that it'll always happen..cos unless the government make money on it they aint interested.
I know this qualified/part P things ruffles alot of feathers..but the ones i'm on about are the ones who don't know what they're doing.
all i want is a way we can all trade without getting dragged down by guys who don't know what they are doing.

a pipedream big style...
 
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Shakey

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  • #24
I do agree shakey,if the job can be done well and by a fully knowledgeable person then part p and the like and the certs shouldnt play too much..alot of the old boys out there havent this stuff but fully know their stuff.
I was more on about the guys that get up one morning and decide to be an electrician and do this course buy a van and become the same as the rest of us with no knowledge of the job or experience.
I know of a few folk who have set up with really limited knowledge who dont know how to test,don't know three phase or two way switching or boiler wiring etc and cant work off an electrical wiring diagram.
yet the law never catches these guys...and now some are protected by part p.
i agree if you know the job then ok...but there are so many out there trading unsafe.
but i guess that it'll always happen..cos unless the government make money on it they aint interested.
I know this qualified/part P things ruffles alot of feathers..but the ones i'm on about are the ones who don't know what they're doing.
all i want is a way we can all trade without getting dragged down by guys who don't know what they are doing.

a pipedream big style...
ok Rabec, glad to see that you have backed down from your original 'fully qualified' argument

but in some ways i am dissapointed

because you, like my good friend Easyfox, and like so may others, throw up the argument, but when challaenged to state what they mean by terms like 'fully qualified' fail to do so

now you have tried to give answers to a question that wasnt asked (in my opinion anyway), and i think it could lead to a really meaningfull discussion

so come one, you've dangled the carrot, allow us to take a bite

what do you, as the originator of this thread, think constitutes a 'fully qualified' or 'proper sparks'?

theres loads of old boys who dont test, and dont have 2391

and what is the ratio of 2391 guys to non 2391 guys?

in my experience (and yes, i do have some) about 20-30% of sparks in any firm wield a multifunction tester in anger

so the guy with 30 yrs experience, who is happy to throw cables about, but is not interested in testing and certifying - proper sparks or not?

or guys like me, got 2391, about 20 of my 25 yrs as an electrician spent inspecting and testing, and ALL of it installing (mostly industrial) with LOADS of quals, but no 2330 or equivalent

proper sparks or not?

gauntlet laid down
 
W

wayne

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
shakey, earlier on this thread a raw nerve was touched when the definitions were mentioned
like in a lot of trades ,people specialise ,they maybe be able to transfer them skills but there qualifications are the best way seeing what they specialise in .you can hardly ask for a practical demo every time ,post job!!
if these cards have to be renewed then it will enable clients /employers see who is up to date
i know ......perfect world ......expensive....more qualis....
 
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Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #27
shakey, earlier on this thread a raw nerve was touched when the definitions were mentioned
like in a lot of trades ,people specialise ,they maybe be able to transfer them skills but there qualifications are the best way seeing what they specialise in .you can hardly ask for a practical demo every time ,post job!!
if these cards have to be renewed then it will enable clients /employers see who is up to date
i know ......perfect world ......expensive....more qualis....
but Wayne, how would you get the card in the first place

quals are easy, just do the course, pick up the ticket, job done

but how do you prove experience:confused:

and theres already a card out there - its called the JIB card

and because i dont have 2330 or equivalent, i cant get one, even though i teach electrical installations!:mad:

and is not even the quals that i have a problem with, - i have spent quite a few years in college and have many quals (some much higher than the level 3 2330) so i obviously believe in the value of quals

what i resent is the original line of this thread that without an arbitory set of quals then you are a not an 'electrician' and should not be allowed to work

I had already come off the tools (for the first time) and gone into my first teaching job by the time RABEC qualified, and he's trying to tell me i should not be working on 'circuits'? - I was doing three phase installations when this guy was still in school

freekin' nerve on the fella!!!!!!!!
 
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W

wayne

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #28
you were probably wiring while he was just a thought of his dads:D
with the jib card you have to do practical tests (am1,am2)
if your card is up to date then theres a better than even chance youre competent to install ,after all why pay to keep a card up to date if your not using it?
 
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Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #29
still waiting for Rabec's reply..........
 
J

johnosman

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  • #30
The biggest con with Part P is that the people who actually police it are the Local Councils Building Control and from what I have seen in Southampton these people have vertually no electrical qualifications at all.
 

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