Perilex wall plug and multi switch configuration issues

[atoprak]

I am having a serious issue with my mechanical ventilation system.

I have replaced the old one and bought a new one from the same brand and with the connection (dammm Perilex!).

I thought that the device will work right away but not... thats where the problem started.

I have tried almost all the combinations on perilex plug (while keeping earth and neutral in place all the time) but couldn’t found a working(!) solution with my 3 way switch.

Finally I connected all the wires as mentioned on product manual to the plug.




The ventilator is not working on neither or the speeds dictated by the 3 way switch. I have then tried to measure the voltage on different switch positions.

Here is what I found ...



I was expecting some 0v in respective positions... i.e. 0V for L2, If we select Speed 1 (S1), or 0V for L1 If we select Speed 2 (S2)... but neither of them goes 0v as I always have some voltage on each.

May be thats the reason... may be switch is broken or I am missing a very fundamental point which might be all about how that is being setup in the electric box.

This is current connections of the plug (I couldn't take the fuse down as It cuts the lights .. at least for now. .. )

In summary I have one blue, one green, two black and one brown wires. I have tired make them all visible for everyone with arrows in colours.



Finally this is how my main electric box looks like. Number 8 is the fuse of that plug (as well as almost all the light sources, plugs in the kitchen and some more out power outlets).

I was expecting a bit different fuse (combined one or so...) as I believe (not sure anything anymore though) that is 3 phase



What do you think ?

The ventilation system is working ... it is not broken .. as the dealer checked it again ..

I am more or less a handy guy and would like to fix this by my own but that kind of output is unique in Netherlands (where I moved), I have no experience on these and I am really exhausted.

Any help will be appreciated !

thank you

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Are those voltages measured L1-N, L2-N, L3-N ie always to neutral? If so, there is a problem in the supply / switch wiring because according to the schematic posted above, L3 should be energised at 230V all the time the fan is on. It does not seem to be getting energised at all.

Please can you post pictures of the connections at the switch? Is it just a simple switch or is it part of an electronic or autotransformer speed control unit?

Normally, I would not be worried to see a non-zero voltage on the lines that are not being energised via the switch. It is possible for the fan unit to back-feed some voltage to those; the actual voltage measured is unimportant. But here, when none of the fan wires are at 230V it doesn't make sense for any of them to have any voltage other than 0 or 230V, hence my mention of the speed control possibly not being just a switch.

What are you using to make the measurements?

 

[atoprak]

Are those voltages measured L1-N, L2-N, L3-N ie always to neutral? If so, there is a problem in the supply / switch wiring because according to the schematic posted above, L3 should be energised at 230V all the time the fan is on. It does not seem to be getting energised at all.

Please can you post pictures of the connections at the switch? Is it just a simple switch or is it part of an electronic or autotransformer speed control unit?

Normally, I would not be worried to see a non-zero voltage on the lines that are not being energised via the switch. It is possible for the fan unit to back-feed some voltage to those; the actual voltage measured is unimportant. But here, when none of the fan wires are at 230V it doesn't make sense for any of them to have any voltage other than 0 or 230V, hence my mention of the speed control possibly not being just a switch.

What are you using to make the measurements?

Hi Lucien

I am using a multimeter device for the measurements and try to get the measurements while the ventilator plugged in or not.

You are absolutely right about the L3. L3 should always be 230V regardless of the switch position.
but I dont get any 230V in neither of the positions... thats why the fan is not working..

If I use either of the black wires ... The fan works at one speed (either M or H, depending on the cable connections) .. but again.. as neither of the blacks are 230 all the time, I can’t use the other speed settings on the switch.

The switch is very basic. It seems working as I get 230V on either L1 or L2 depending on the selection .... ut couldn’t removed yet as I am not sure how to do that.. there is no visible screw there and the rotating tip seems pretty stiff to be removed.. I am worried about breaking this ... but I will try again ...

I really need to understand why I get lower voltage on brown all the time.

Here is the last readings when the device is not plugged in...
Speed1 : L1>135 L2>145 L3>200
Speed2 : L1>180 L2>230 L3>207
Speed3 : L1>230 L2>180 L3>204

 

[Lucien Nunes]

If you are getting readings other than zero or 230V with the fan not plugged in, then either:

a) The intermediate voltage readings are just voltages induced on the 'floating' conductors by the energised ones. These are often called 'ghost voltages' because they disappear when any significant load is applied. Only due to its very high input resistance does the multimeter sense a voltage. But as I mentioned in the previous post, if none of the conductors are fully energised, then there is nothing for any of the others to pick up a voltage from.

b) The control box contains something (other than the switch itself) that is making them partially live. There could be suppression capacitors across the contacts, for example.

Definitely need to examine the switch and check the continuity of all conductors.
Do you have any information about the old fan eg. the equivalent connection schematic?

 

[atoprak]

If you are getting readings other than zero or 230V with the fan not plugged in, then either:

a) The intermediate voltage readings are just voltages induced on the 'floating' conductors by the energised ones. These are often called 'ghost voltages' because they disappear when any significant load is applied. Only due to its very high input resistance does the multimeter sense a voltage. But as I mentioned in the previous post, if none of the conductors are fully energised, then there is nothing for any of the others to pick up a voltage from.

b) There is something other than the switch that is making them partially live. There could be suppression capacitors across the contacts, for example.

Definitely need to examine the switch and check the continuity of all conductors.

Well,
This is the switch ...

and the connection diagram

But I haven’t tried again to remove to top, rotating element and checked the connections back. I will do that for sure.

On thing that I understand from you comments that, considering that the fan is not working with this configuration, it sounds a bit normal to have this ghost voltage. If I connect switch one of the black with brown, I get one speed, the fan is working. While It is working I should 0 on other connections, am I correct ?

Or is something very mysterious got broken recently (not found yet) and it is messing up all my grid?The thing is .. everything on the same line is working but ı am not sure ıf they are using the power from where this (! )brown connected...

 

[atoprak]

If you are getting readings other than zero or 230V with the fan not plugged in, then either:

a) The intermediate voltage readings are just voltages induced on the 'floating' conductors by the energised ones. These are often called 'ghost voltages' because they disappear when any significant load is applied. Only due to its very high input resistance does the multimeter sense a voltage. But as I mentioned in the previous post, if none of the conductors are fully energised, then there is nothing for any of the others to pick up a voltage from.

b) The control box contains something (other than the switch itself) that is making them partially live. There could be suppression capacitors across the contacts, for example.

Definitely need to examine the switch and check the continuity of all conductors.
Do you have any information about the old fan eg. the equivalent connection schematic?

And this is the connections on the switch.
As expected, brown in the middle ….

But i am confused… where this voltage come from ?? and is there any chance that the switch has some issues on the connection of brown ? .. may be corrosion ?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The question is: Where does the brown feed to the switch join to the L3 feed to the Perilex outlet? I suspect that this is the bad connection. If so, we might expect that the ghost voltages on the blacks and the floating section of brown are being picked up by proximity to the switch brown which is fully live even though the Perilex L3 is not. At the moment I am not particularly interested in those voltages, only in the lack of a feed to L3.

Perhaps there is a junction box between switch and outlet, or is there another switch that might contain the junction. How would you turn the fan completely off?

 

[atoprak]

The question is: Where does the brown feed to the switch join to the L3 feed to the Perilex outlet? I suspect that this is the bad connection. If so, we might expect that the ghost voltages on the blacks and the floating section of brown are being picked up by proximity to the switch brown which is fully live even though the Perilex L3 is not. At the moment I am not particularly interested in those voltages, only in the lack of a feed to L3.

Perhaps there is a junction box between switch and outlet, or is there another switch that might contain the junction. How would you turn the fan completely off?

First of all, the fan runs (should) all the time. It runs on low speed when switch is on lowest (with l3 only) and gradually increased with the other control wires takes 230v with the other positions of the switch. The blacks seems fine, they take 230v with the Medium and High settings.

I just moved the house .. the old unit was working (not checked with all speeds as the bad unit was the concern that time) with the original configuration but needs replacement as a result of bad fins and noise.. if I connect the old device now, it is not working either. So far I only changed the cables on the wall plug.. not touched the main box nor the switch. I have no idea where it gets the either.. the main fuse box is sealed …

It is very odd… I really don’t understand what could happen in between…

 

[atoprak]

I started to see very strange behaviour... or I am getting mad.
I have plugged the fan to the same outlet and observed that the fan starts to run .. increases the speed for 3-4 sec.. and stops .. then starts and stops. ...

If I check the voltages (the switch is on highest setting) L1 is 232V stable, L2 is not stable and around 150s.. and L3 is 230 but gets lower and lower by the speed increases until 160V s where the fan stops. When the fan stops, It jumps. to 220v-230v and gradually decreases as an opposite of the fan speed.

It is almost mid night in here.. may be something behaves different on the grid compare to day hours and I don't get 220-23v even for a moment. ...

Something weird is going on..

 

[Lucien Nunes]

If the supply network were the problem, all the voltages would change in proportion and in sync, and your lights and appliances would be showing symptoms. I still think the problem is bad connections so I would be disconnecting the power and testing continuity / resistance of all the conductors.

One work-around you might be able to use for the time being, that would get you two speeds, is as follows:

Disconnect and securely insulate the problem L3 wire at the Perilex outlet. Then at the switch, connect one of the blacks to the working permanent brown live feed. Find that black wire at the Perilex and use it as the new L3 permanent feed. Use the other black for whichever of L1 or L2 gives the more useful speed.

 

[atoprak]

If the supply network were the problem, all the voltages would change in proportion and in sync, and your lights and appliances would be showing symptoms. I still think the problem is bad connections so I would be disconnecting the power and testing continuity / resistance of all the conductors.

One work-around you might be able to use for the time being, that would get you two speeds, is as follows:

Disconnect and securely insulate the problem L3 wire at the Perilex outlet. Then at the switch, connect one of the blacks to the working permanent brown live feed. Find that black wire at the Perilex and use it as the new L3 permanent feed. Use the other black for whichever of L1 or L2 gives the more useful speed.

Last night I have turn all the fuses down except this one .. and try to understand if something else is causing this issue. No, nothing has changed.

This morning, I have checked the voltage on brown and get 200V instead of 230s in the mid night..

I really dont know how to test all the conductors and resistance as I have no access the inside of the fuse box as well as the perilex outlet and the switch is 20m apart...

I was thinking about using two speed, let say low/ high while discarding the brown cable once for all .. and using the black ones only ... but I just got stuck with that and even can not work, cant get this out of my head ...

May be I should ask for professional help ..
A couple of weeks ago, I had a strange earth leakage circuit breaker issue as well for the first group.. without any reason, the it gone down for a week even we were not at home ... then It came back to normal .. As this is on another group and all the devices working fine, I dont see any relation with that though..

So confused and stuck ...

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I am not sure on the rules in NL about accessing inside the distribution board and equipment. In the UK the fuse box is always 100% customer property and never sealed, because it never contains any metering connections. If there is any supplier's equipment inside your board then it might be an offence to break the seal. This could be the point at which you need to get a local electrician involved and there is not much else I can suggest from here.

But please stay in contact and let us know the outcome.

 

[atoprak]

I am not sure on the rules in NL about accessing inside the distribution board and equipment. In the UK the fuse box is always 100% customer property and never sealed, because it never contains any metering connections. If there is any supplier's equipment inside your board then it might be an offence to break the seal. This could be the point at which you need to get a local electrician involved and there is not much else I can suggest from here.

But please stay in contact and let us know the outcome.

Thanks Lucien,

I will definitely keep this thread updated.
Let me arrange this two speed setup as finding s decent electrician and scheduling might be an issue in here (never done that before.. ) .. and costly for sure...
Anyway ... I need a network cable in my attic as well.. and running those cable into the walls needs some handson experience as well.. so may be I can delegate all these stuff at once.
Let see how it goes. thanks again.

 

[atoprak]

I am not sure on the rules in NL about accessing inside the distribution board and equipment. In the UK the fuse box is always 100% customer property and never sealed, because it never contains any metering connections. If there is any supplier's equipment inside your board then it might be an offence to break the seal. This could be the point at which you need to get a local electrician involved and there is not much else I can suggest from here.

But please stay in contact and let us know the outcome.

Hello again..

A quick update... 2 speed setup is not working either... I have changed the position of brown with one of the blacks on both switch and the plug but no movement at all. the reason is that (which is quite logical) I dont have constant 230 on either of the blacks...

Then I decided to open the main electrical box .. and I can open the cover which is not sealed and shows almost everything....
The fuse has only one brown and one neutral (as expected, right ? ) .. and nothing more.. and there is no black wire in the box at all.. .. I am not expert on this but how these blacks gets any kind of feed... I think they are not connected to grid at all and getting something from somewhere ???

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I have changed the position of brown with one of the blacks on both switch and the plug

The idea was to join one black to the brown at the switch, to make it into a permanent live feed for L3. Because we think the brown at the switch is always live, yes? And disconnect the brown completely at the socket because we don't know what it is doing, and insulate it in case it becomes live.