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Discuss PIR 16th Vs 17th please clarify in the Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification area at ElectriciansForums.net

M

m4ttyd

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Hi there,


Been doing periodics for 10 years now... Will someone clarify to me, now the 17th has come into effect, what regulations i'm testing to.... for example I was told by a very good spark that if the installation complies to 16th edition regs then its a pass with all the nessary notes explaning it must be upgraded, he even gives out one year certs to enforce this.

Another sparky however said that this isn't right and he is telling customers that everything must now comply to 17th edition. so if that means a re-wire so be it.
 
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scotsparky

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Arms
If ithats the case half the country would need rewires.

I test to 17th and on my defect sheet (page 2 ) mark whats needs done as recommendations. For instance rcd protection on circuits in an office. If the circuit is fine and without an rcd the Zs is low enouph for correct disconnection i would class 2 it. But would class 1 circuits where it could suppply something outdoors. Remeber PIRs are a report and if the cliet doesnt want to do anything thats his problem hes paying you to give advice.
 
T

Tapouchoke

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  • #3
Hi folks

correct me if I am wrong hear but I was under the impression that all socket outlets had to be protected by an rcd I-n 30ma indoors if they whereto be used by none competent persons
I would probably give this a code 1

But I would probably give this a code 2Additional protection not provided by 30-ma rcd for cables concealed in walls or ceilings for protection against penetration

I think we need to judge each installation on its own merits

Also I think we are all guilty of this how much you want thee remedial works ????
 
S

Spudnik

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  • #4
If there are any code 1's on an installation, then its generally an instant unsatisfactory and the place shut down and locked off.

Code 2 would be a maximum for non RCD socket outlets IMO.
 

old dog

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Arms
code 1 requires urgent attention
code 2 requires improvment
code 3 requires further investigation
code 4 dose not comply with bs 7671 / 2008
therefore an installation comleted to the 16th edition
would be a code 4
 

scotsparky

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Arms
true old dog.
 
S

spark1

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  • #7
code 1 requires urgent attention
code 2 requires improvment
code 3 requires further investigation
code 4 dose not comply with bs 7671 / 2008
therefore an installation comleted to the 16th edition
would be a code 4

Using this as a rule then an installation completed to the 13th edition would also be a code 4 ![satisfactory]
Undersized Main Earth
Probably No Main bonding
No Supplementary bonding
Possibly Voltage Operated type Elcb
No cpc to lights
No RCd protection ...Anywhere...
I could go on......

No . I Test to B.S 7671 2008 but Code accordingly...............As a matter of interest any NICEIC sparks should take note that Codes 1 AND 2 are now deemed to result in an Unsatisfactory result on a P.I.R
 
M

m4ttyd

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  • #8
I've not herd that a code 2 is a fail if your niceic registered. I don't think that right.... Its a very grey area that i think needs to be addressed....
obviously a lot is down to the testers discresion but if I have very few codes 3 & 4's and one code 2, I tend to pass this.... As for No RCD being a code 1 thats not right as its not causing an immediate threat to danger its code 2 max.... and if this was my only code 2 I would pass it..
 
R

ron55

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  • #9
If there are any code 1's on an installation, then its generally an instant unsatisfactory and the place shut down and locked off.

Code 2 would be a maximum for non RCD socket outlets IMO.
Hi Jason

As much as I would love to do this, I don't think you have the legal right to shut off someone's supply and lock it off. They are commissioning you to do a report and ultimately it's down to them what cours of action will be taken.

Cheers, Ron
 
A

AMST09

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  • #10
A code 4 is not up to current regulations (17th) but is not considered to be dangerous...eg green earthing conductor instead of green and yellow (only thing I can think of off the top of my head :p)

Just to add a PIR is not a certificate its a report on the status of the electrics
You are not then liable for the whole installation
If the client chooses to ignore what is put in the report then thats up to them
But you cannot insist that someone has a rewire or modifications done
It is completely their decision
 
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S

spark1

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  • #11
I've not herd that a code 2 is a fail if your niceic registered. I don't think that right.... Its a very grey area that i think needs to be addressed....
obviously a lot is down to the testers discresion but if I have very few codes 3 & 4's and one code 2, I tend to pass this.... As for No RCD being a code 1 thats not right as its not causing an immediate threat to danger its code 2 max.... and if this was my only code 2 I would pass it..


Pre :bs 7671 2008 you would have been correct. If you take a look at Electricity safety Councils -The Best Practice Guide for Periodic Inspection Reporting Codes on Websites such as The Electrical Safety Council Or the NICEIC you will find it is expressed that it would not be reasonable to assess an installation as "satisfactory" if any Code 1 OR code 2 was applied .



spark1
 
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W

WB Scott

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  • #12
On my Periodics I tend to class No RCD protection on ground floor sockets as a class 1 and insist to the client that sufficient protection is added and Class any other socket outlets as a class 4, as with buried cables and NON RCD protection in bathroom. Also we have just had our NIC inspection at work and the inspector advised that NON RCD protection on shower circuits be a class 2 not 4, which has been mentioned already in now a failure/un-ssatisfactory
 
R

ron55

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  • #13
On my Periodics I tend to class No RCD protection on ground floor sockets as a class 1 and insist to the client that sufficient protection is added and Class any other socket outlets as a class 4, as with buried cables and NON RCD protection in bathroom. Also we have just had our NIC inspection at work and the inspector advised that NON RCD protection on shower circuits be a class 2 not 4, which has been mentioned already in now a failure/un-ssatisfactory
The thing is you have been commissioned to do a report. You can't insist that clients implement your recomendations. You can stress the point until you are blue in the face but ultimately the decision is theirs to make.

Maybe it's not a satisfactory situation but that's how it is.

Cheers, Ron
 

Des 56

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Arms
Esteemed
Code 2 requires improvement

The nic and esc (which are basically the same outfit) says a code 2 is a fail ?

I could understand if there were quite a few code 2 s, then your decision may be unsatisfactory

If the advise was followed then hardly an handful of installations in the whole of electric land would pass

Playing with both the extreems of the need for safety here I believe
It seems to be a peculiar stance when the same organisation supports and encourages the use of visual inspections which are being used as substitutes for a proper pir
Feet in both camps by the look of things
 
E

electro

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  • #15
Hi

very good post,
Sorry guys I'm all for visual inspections, you will find more code 1's with a visual inspections than you would with a tester. when PIR's are carried out most people leave out the IR when MCB's are present (not everyone). I not seen many satisfactory PIRs is that sparkys covering thier backside or are the installation not satisfactory???

Regards
 
W

WB Scott

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  • #16
The thing is you have been commissioned to do a report. You can't insist that clients implement your recomendations. You can stress the point until you are blue in the face but ultimately the decision is theirs to make.

Maybe it's not a satisfactory situation but that's how it is.

Cheers, Ron
Most of our PIR's are done for Housing associations, therfor a pass is a must for them. We carry out all failure work after the PIR is done, should have mentioned this. Of coures its a slightly different situatin for private clients.
 
T

Tapouchoke

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  • #17
Pre :bs 7671 2008 you would have been correct. If you take a look at Electricity safety Councils -The Best Practice Guide for Periodic Inspection Reporting Codes on Websites such as The Electrical Safety Council Or the NICEIC you will find it is expressed that it would not be reasonable to assess an installation as "satisfactory" if any Code 1 OR code 2 was applied .



spark1

HEAR HEAR!:cool:
 
If there are any code 1's on an installation, then its generally an instant unsatisfactory and the place shut down and locked off.

Code 2 would be a maximum for non RCD socket outlets IMO.
This would mean that you could be prosecuted - you have no legal power to turn off an unsafe installation!

Where on earth do people get the idea that all existing installations have to comply with the 17th or they fail a PIR? - total, utter rubbish.


Anyone carrying out a PIR should know far better or they should leave well alone.:mad:
 
S

Spudnik

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  • #19
Sorry i didnt word that correctly, however, we both know that its highly unlikely that anyone would get taken to court over isolating part of an installation that is unsafe.

So, let me put it another way, 'should be isolated and made safe'.

You would probably end up in court faster if you left any dangerous parts of an installation energised and someone ended up in hospital due to contact with live parts.
 
S

Spudnik

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  • #21
That`s the problem - we have NO legal right to isolate.........:confused:
Indeed, although i think most people would probably understand if it came to it, especially if one pointed out the risks and/or dangers.
 

old dog

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Arms
any immediately dangerouse condition should preferably be rectified.if not,
the defect should be reported in writing without delay to the employer or
responsible employee

( see regulation 3 of the electricity at work regulations 1989 )

if a code 1 is allocated to an observation, idicating that it requires urgent attention, then
the overall assessment must be that it is unsatisfactory. an example of this is an installation wuich has no earth.
if a codes 2 or 3 are allocated the person carrying out the test will have to use judgement to determine whether or not
the installation can be classed as satisfactory
 
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DHES-LTD

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  • #23
I always code 4 no rcd protection.
 
A

alphaelec

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  • #24
can i do minor works certification without 17th qualification?
 
S

spark1

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  • #25
You can complete Minor Works Certificates without actually holding a 17th ed .qualification.The requirement to issue a MWC is so as to certify that your work is,in simple words, safe,and it is generally recognised that if the work complies with bs 7671 then this will be the case.....without the qualification though you would be hard pushed to prove you were competant if the need arose.


spark1
 
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alphaelec

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  • #26
You can complete Minor Works Certificates without actually holding a 17th ed .qualification.The requirement to issue a MWC is so as to certify that your work is,in simple words, safe,and it is generally recognised that if the work complies with bs 7671 then this will be the case.....without the qualification though you would be hard pushed to prove you were competant if the need arose.


spark1
I have had the 16th ed.qual.since 1998 would this satisfy my local council?
 

scotsparky

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Arms
I have had the 16th ed.qual.since 1998 would this satisfy my local council?
It may help to show experiance but there has been changes and even if you know your job the council will want paperwork
 
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alphaelec

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  • #28
It may help to show experiance but there has been changes and even if you know your job the council will want paperwork
basically I've tested a kitchen refurb. that was done 5yrs ago by a spark who didn't leave certification ..now the council want one..but I'm concerned that because I don't have my 17th ed. yet ,they might reject the certificate I've issued ,even though I have the 16th and have been testing for years including large goverment offices and factories etc.,
 
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spark1

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  • #29
It wont be a Minor Works Certificate that the council require, and you could not issue one for the Kitchen refurb even if the work only merited a Minor Works Certificate ,as you did not install it. The paperwork the council require now can only be a Periodic Inspection Report...which you can issue on the existing Kitchen refurb....noting any departures as and where necessary.


spark1
 
S

Spudnik

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  • #30
The council generally will only accept a PIR if they agree to it.

You will need to contact them first, as there is a particular way of doing this.:)
 
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