PIR 16th Vs 17th please clarify

[professional]

m4ttyd the report is not pass fail its Satisfactory or non satisfactory. Any class 1or 2 and its non satisfactory.

Not true - it is up to the individual - the ESC/NICEIC only issue THEIR guidelines - these are not necessarily the guidelines of the electrical industry as a whole (thank god!).

 

[scotsparky]

professional niceic wasnt mentioned but as i said in a previous note the tester is being paid for his technical knowlege. I have never seen a test report with Fail on it i have seen a few with Unsatisfactory. If you do "fail " an installation what do you do? The tester cant shut it down unless he hase been given specific authorisatioin from the client. All he can do is say the installation is in an Unsatisfactory condition and give the list of reasons why and the severity of each fault. The resposibility then goes to the client about what to do.

 

[professional]

My point is that a code 2 is not an automatic "unsatisfactory" for the installation - only the ESC guidelines indicate this. There are many code 2`s that I could not, in all honesty, use to classify an installation as unsatisfactory.

 

[baldsparkies]

If code 2 requires improvement and code 1 requires urgent attention I cant see why a code 2 would be unsatisfactory,sometimes I have seen code 2s and code 4s togethor on the same observation, its another situation open for interpritation and that can't be right. When we do a periodic report with 16 previous editions of BS7671 behind us we should at least all be coming from the same direction, to many grey areas for my liking

 

[scotsparky]

Well that goes down to the individual tester and their classifications of class 2 faults. This i am sure you will agree is varied. Generally however if you do look at the guidelines. ( i will use NIC as that thats who the company is regestered with) most class 2s will be unsatisfactory.

 

[Spudnik]

There are many code 2`s that I could not, in all honesty, use to classify an installation as unsatisfactory.

Any examples?

Would be interested to hear your views

 

[baldsparkies]

Not wishing to throw a spanner into the works scott, but have you ever considered typical disconnection times on a socket circuit ie 0.4 seconds in relation to safe operation of the protective device.
Lets say a type b 20A radial gives a Zs reading that complies with safe disconnection time then the circuit we have tested should be seen as satisfactory,not any more,because the circuit now needs suplementery protection in the form of an rcd. Not because the circuit itself doesn't comply,but because someone could plug an appliance into the circuit that has conductive parts and insufficient earthing.
What I am trying to say is that its not the socket circuit thats unsafe its the appliance that may or may not be plugged into it. and you the tester now have to code 2 a circuit to cover something that is not technically part of the install.
Taking it further a novice could take a Zs of say 22 ohms on a circuit thats connected to a pme tncs system and because its protected by an rcd,deem this as a satisfactory reading because the tables give 1667 ohms as the max permissable. Ok with experiance you would know that something was not quite right but according to the book all is fine.
Its food for thought would you not agree.

 

[scotsparky]

Bald i agree in what your saying.as for the 20a type c cinario i would class 3/4 that and put in a recomendation for rcds/rcbos to be installed on the report.
As for the 22ohm Zs that is an odd one and any expiriance tester would pick it up. Yes theoretically ok but what about the Zs x In <50v rule? and other things that have to be taken into account as well as proving diconnetion times.

 

[baldsparkies]

Thats the point scott even at 20 ohms the disconnection time is there and the potential wont rise above 50v as a result. But the integrity of the R1+R2 is suspect and could break down. My answer would be to base maximum Zs on the mcb values and not rcd values (much safer) TT systems accepted of course.
Its all very interesting stuff though, makes for good dicussions

 

[scotsparky]

yes i agree its where expiriance and good training comes in. But what my main point was th PASS FAIL idea. my point was it Satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

 

[baldsparkies]

Ok regardless of code 2s and what they should be classed as between unsatisfactory or satisfactory, why not go for.

Generally Satisfactory other than items as listed under observations and recomendations for 2,3 and 4.

Code 1 is clear cut as unsatisfactory (Do you reckon that would cover us)

 

[Spudnik]

But what my main point was th PASS FAIL idea. my point was it Satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

Ok lets look at it another way.

If you were discussing the subject of a recent PIR that came back unsatisfactory, would you say, "That property unsatisfactoried a PIR"?

It would be "That property failed a PIR".

Thats how is see it, but indeed, they are either satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

 

[martquin]

Hi everybody newbie here. Just had niceic inspection. All code 1 must be accompanied with a danger notice.

 

[scotsparky]

I think we are gettin down to personal views and arguing out own corner on interpritation.

 

[martquin]

This is not my personal view but straight from niceic inspector.

 

[scotsparky]

No Martquin my comment was about something else.

 

[slocm3105]

I "personally" think that as long as we can identify dagerous or at risk situations, and the differences between them and not to current standards situations we will be fine. The regs are there to be interpreted by us .

Cheers

 

[isitintheregs]

Ok lets look at it another way.

If you were discussing the subject of a recent PIR that came back unsatisfactory, would you say, "That property unsatisfactoried a PIR"?

It would be "That property failed a PIR".

Thats how is see it, but indeed, they are either satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

Why not "The PIR on property X deemed the electrical installation to be unsatisfactory." ?

 

[scotsparky]

I "personally" think that as long as we can identify dagerous or at risk situations, and the differences between them and not to current standards situations we will be fine. The regs are there to be interpreted by us .

Cheers

There is a lot in the regs that isnt up to interpritation. and once you understand the regs most of it is pritty clear.

 

[baldsparkies]

I agree with you Scot most of what is written in the regs is clear, It's what is NOT written that causes confusion, and or reading between the lines scenarios. I suppose if enough of the same questions are getting back to the iee from in the field electricians,then clarification comes to us through ammendmants.The 16th had more than it's fair share of those over the years.