PIR reporting and competent persons.

[Phil]

:there have been a few posts recently asking "Can I do a pir without being in a scheme"
The simple answer is "YES"

:Do I have to have my 2391 to test,
NO but it does go towards proving your competence to do so.


the other parts to the answer that only you will be able to answer is;
are you competent to test?

do you have the correct insurance? (Indemnity)?

are you experienced enough to not only test but furthermore understand the readings and also interpret them in such a way as to be able to make a judgement upon the state of the installation?

Scheme membership with regards to carrying out periodic s is not necessary but it may prove to be worth while you being in one depending upon the Local authorities, estate agents or insurance companies as they may require you to be a member of a certain scheme before they will recognise your report.

BS7671 2008 17th edition below gives the introduction as to what a competent person is in the eyes of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989.

Competent Person : 2008 . 17th Edition
General -

1. Introduction
2. Skilled person
3. Instructed person
4. Ordinary person

1. Introduction

People who are to work on electrical equipment or electrical installations must be competent to do so. The level of competence required will depend on the complexity of the task and the amount of technical knowledge required. According to the Memorandum of guidance on the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989, issued by the Health and Safety Executive, the suitability of an individual to carry out a task depends on the scope of the individual’s technical knowledge and experience, and will include:

● adequate knowledge of electricity
● adequate experience of electrical work
● adequate understanding of the system to be worked on and practical experience of that class of system
● understanding of the hazards which may arise during the work and the precautions which need to be taken
● ability to recognize at all times whether it is safe for work to continue.

As electrical energy is inherently dangerous, regulation 16 of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 (EWR) requires that:

“ No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work “

Regulation 2 of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 defines ‘danger’ and ‘injury’ as:

- Danger ……. means ‘risk of injury’.

- Injury ……. means ‘death or personal injury from electric shock, electric burn, electrical explosion or arcing, or from fire or explosion initiated by electrical energy, where any such death or injury is associated with the generation, provision, transmission, transformation, rectification, conversion, conduction, distribution, control, storage, measurement or use of electrical energy’.

This topic provides guidance on the three levels of competence as defined in BS 7671 (IEE Wiring Regulations) as applying to skilled persons, instructed persons and ordinary persons.

2. Skilled person

A skilled person is defined in BS 7671 as:

‘Skilled person. A person with technical knowledge or sufficient experience to enable him/her to avoid dangers which electricity may create.’

The definition of a skilled person does not imply that a skilled person will be able to work safely on all electrical equipment or electrical systems; rather that such a person is expected to be able to make correct choices when deciding whether or not to work on such equipment or systems.

For example, the level of risk associated with the isolation of a circuit of a domestic low voltage installation may be lower than that associated with the isolation of a circuit of a complex low voltage installation. A skilled person would be able to recognize the difference in the level of risk, associated with isolation, in each type of installation and make an appropriate choice as to how, or whether, such work should be carried out.

The level of technical knowledge or experience necessary will depend on the nature of the activity to be carried out. For example, a short course and a period of practice may be adequate to enable simple tasks to be safely performed, whereas complex design activity may require many years of education, training and experience.

3. Instructed person

An instructed person is defined in BS 7671 as:

‘Instructed person .A person adequately advised or supervised by skilled persons to enable him/her to avoid dangers which electricity may create.‘

An instructed person need not simply be a trainee or apprentice. An instructed person is anyone who requires a skilled person to supervise him/her when working on or near electrical equipment or electrical systems, in order to avoid the dangers associated with electricity.

For example, it may be that an electrician experienced in a wide range of low voltage electrical work is retraining to enable him/her to isolate high voltage supplies on site. Whilst the electrician is in training, he/she requires an appropriate level of supervision to ensure that isolation of high voltage supplies is carried out safely. In such circumstances, he/she would be considered to be an instructed person.

The Memorandum of guidance on the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 recognizes that ‘supervision’ does not require that the skilled person must be in constant attendance of the instructed person. The degree of supervision is dependent on ensuring that danger, or injury, is prevented. For example, where the risks associated with a task are low, verbal instructions may be appropriate. However, where the risk or complexity increases, it is likely that written procedures and more overt oversight becomes necessary in order for instructions to be understood and the task supervised more rigorously.

4. Ordinary person

An ordinary person is defined in BS 7671 as:

‘Ordinary person .A person who is neither a skilled person nor an instructed person.‘
The definition of an ordinary person indicates that the individual has neither the technical knowledge nor the experience necessary to carry out work on electrical equipment or electrical systems. Therefore, any task carried out by such a person on electrical equipment or electrical systems whilst he or she was at work would fall outside of the guidance provided by the Memorandum of guidance on the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 on regulation 16 of the EWR, in that the person would not have, amongst other things, adequate knowledge of electricity or adequate experience of electrical work.

Neither BS 7671 nor the Memorandum of guidance on the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 prohibits the correct operation and use of electrical equipment, such as computers, vacuum cleaners, switches etc by ordinary persons.

 

[Paul.M]

May I be the first to vote this to be a sticky.

 

[amberleaf]

Sorry about this Phil . This may help Other Electricians in the “ Field “ Thank you Amber .

► Maintainability : ( 2391-10)

1. Introduction
2. Requirements for maintainability
3. Selection and erection in relation to maintainability, including cleaning
4. Periodic maintenance
4.1 Records of maintenance
4.2 Operation and Maintenance (O & M) manuals

1. Introduction

All electrical installations and electrical equipment will tend to deteriorate over time due to accidental or deliberate damage, corrosion, electrical overloading and from environmental factors. It is important, therefore, that the installation can be maintained without undue difficulty and kept in a safe condition throughout its life. The likely requirements for future maintenance should be assessed in the early stages of the electrical installation design, and taken into account in the design.

This topic discusses the requirements for the maintainability of an electrical installation and includes the requirements and selective guidance for its periodic maintenance. The topic does not, however, cover periodic inspection and testing of an electrical installation.

2. Requirements for maintainability

The Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 (EWR) impose responsibilities on Duty Holders* to maintain their installations in a safe condition at all times to prevent the risk of electrical injury (regulation 4(2) refers). The requirements of the EWR are applicable to all places of work, including factories, hospitals, schools, offices and shops, for example. It follows that the electrical installation designer has an obligation to assess foreseeable maintenance requirements and to incorporate adequate provision(s) for them in the overall design.

BS 7671 requires that an assessment is made of the frequency and quality of maintenance that an electrical installation can reasonably be expected to receive during its intended life (Regulation 341.1 refers). Similarly, HSR25 Memorandum of guidance on the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989, in the guidance to regulation 4(2), indicates that the quality and frequency of maintenance should be sufficient to prevent danger so far as is reasonably practicable.

► Regulation 341.1 requires that, having regard to the frequency and quality of maintenance expected, persons responsible for the design, construction and commissioning of an electrical installation must apply all the relevant requirements of BS 7671 so that during the life of the installation:

● any periodic inspection, testing, maintenance and repairs likely to be necessary during the intended life can be readily and safely carried out, and

● the effectiveness of the protective measures for safety during the intended life shall not diminish, and

● the reliability of equipment for proper functioning of the installation is appropriate to the intended life.

Practical application of Regulation 341.1 would include making suitable provisions for the periodic replacement or repair of electrical equipment having a likely limited life expectancy before failure of such electrical equipment can create an electrical shock, fire or other hazard. For example, where an item of electrical equipment is of necessity located in a particularly harsh environment, the designer has the option of selecting electrical equipment that will withstand the environmental conditions for the whole lifetime of the installation, or the electrical equipment may be selected having a shorter life-span with arrangements made for its periodic replacement. Whichever option is chosen, the safety of persons must be ensured and not compromised at any time.

The persons responsible for the maintenance of the electrical installation should, wherever practicable, be consulted on the frequency and quality of maintenance that is likely to be undertaken (► Regulation 341.1 refers). Therefore, the designer’s decisions relating to the selection and erection of electrical equipment for the purposes of maintainability, including cleaning operations (see item 3), should ideally be influenced by the expected capability of the persons carrying out any electrical maintenance activities. Appendix 5 of BS 7671 categorizes the capabilities of persons as:

● BA1-ordinary
● BA2-children
● BA3-handicapped
● BA4-instructed
● BA5-skilled

Depending on the type of building and its use, the electrical installation designer will need to decide what provisions are required for periodic maintenance to be carried out in a safe manner. Such a decision should be made by assessing each foreseeable maintenance activity against the corresponding category of persons involved.

 

[amberleaf]

Locations’ :
Containing a Hot tub or Garden Spa . ( Odd Junk )

- Increased risk of Electric Shock .
- Protective multiple Earthing ( PME )


(i) The increasing use of hot tubs and garden spas, in both indoor and outdoor locations, has brought with it an increase in the number of questions posed about the safety requirements for the associated electrical installations. The questions raised result from the need to know what particular requirements of BS 7671 should be applied to a given situation. For example, should the requirements set out in Section 701, Section 702, or both, be applied in addition to the general requirements ?.

The product specification relevant to hot tubs and garden spas is BS EN 60335-2-60: Specification for safety of household and similar appliances: Particular requirements for whirlpool baths and whirlpool spas.

“ Increased risk of Electric Shock “

(ii) As with rooms containing a bath tub or shower basin, the indoor hot tub introduces an increased risk of electric shock due to the reduction in body resistance, particularly contact resistance, due to immersion, or partial immersion, in water. For hot tubs located outdoors and garden spas, the risk of electric shock is further increased because contact with the general mass of Earth is likely. ( * Touch voltages * under earth fault conditions are increased due to persons being in contact with ‘true’ Earth, i.e. the ground.)

“ Indoor Hot Tub’s “

(iii) Where a hot tub is placed in a location containing a bath or shower, the requirements of Section 701 have to be met. However, where a hot tub is located indoors, it may be placed in a room other than the bathroom. Where a hot tub is located in a room other than a bathroom, whether on the ground floor or elsewhere indoors, the location will be subject to similar electrical safety considerations as a bathroom. In such cases, the electrical installation designer may decide that the requirements of Section 701 should be applied in full.

“ Garden Spa’s “

(iv) Where the garden spa is housed in a purpose-made spa-shelter , the location will be subject to similar electrical safety considerations as a bathroom, and the most appropriate requirements to apply are likely to be those of Section 701.
( Garden Spa’s in purpose made shelter )

Where the garden spa is an ‘open-air’ type , the location falls within the scope of Regulation 702.11 (basins of swimming pools, fountains and paddling pools, and their surrounds). The requirements of Section 702 should therefore be applied in full for this type of installation.

larger type “ Swim Spa’s . would be Subject to the requirements of section 702 .

“ Hybrid Spa’s “

(v) Where a spa does not fit into either of the categories referred to in items (iii) or (iv), the electrical installation designer must use engineering judgment in applying the relevant requirements. Electrical equipment should be suitable for the particular external influences likely to occur at its point of installation, and any additional measures considered necessary for protection against electric shock should be deployed. For example, as cited in the note to Section 415, additional protection in accordance with Section 415 may be specified with the protective measure under certain conditions of external influence and in certain special locations. This may include:

- protection by an RCD with a residual operating current not exceeding 30mA, and/or
- supplementary bonding.

Another measure of protection against electric shock which may be used is separated extra-low voltage (SELV) meeting the requirements given in Sections 701 and/or 702 of BS 7671.

The relevant requirements of BS 7671 need to be complied with, so that the degree of electrical safety is “ NOT “ less than that afforded in a location containing a bath or shower, or a location containing a swimming pool.

“ Protective multiple Earthing ( PME )

(iv) Where earthing is by ( PME) , it should be noted that electricity distributor’s notes of guidance often contain particular requirements relating to electrical installations in locations containing swimming or paddling pools or the like, or do “ NOT “permit ( PME ) earthing to be extended outside buildings in which there is an insulated floor and main protective bonding is provided.

many Thanks Amber.

Sorry about this Phil. I’ll stop sending down my Rubbish !!

 

[mogga]

is there a listing in definitions for stoopid "maintenance men" who seem able to mess up everything with ease ??

I second this for stickyness BTW

 

[brucelee]

cheers phil and amber

i answered the can you do a pir without 2391 and answered the same as you you dont need it but it helps to prove competence

yes this deffo needs to be a sticky so i third it

 

[nickblake]

And im 4th ing it , this should defo be a sticky some great answers nice one phil and amber

 

[amberleaf]

Earth Electrode : ( sorry about this Phil . had Drawings but I don’t know how to down load the with it ) READ Only
Special requirements where connecting to ;

1. Introduction :
2. Requirements applicable to electrical connections :
2.1 General requirements applicable to all electrical connections :
2.1.1. Proper construction :
2.1.2. External influence :
2.1.3. Accessibility :
2.2. Particular requirements applicable to the connection of an earthing conductor to an earth electrode :
2.2.1. Connection to be soundly made electrically & mechanically satisfactory :
2.2.2. Labelled :
2.2.3. Suitably protected against corrosion :
3. Recommendations :
4. Inspection & Testing :

1. Introduction :

Where an earth electrode is used as part of the measures for protection of persons, livestock and property against dangers and damage which may arise in the reasonable use of an electrical installation, the connection of the earthing conductor to the earth electrode is vital for safety and has to meet the requirements of BS 7671. An example of the use of an earth electrode, is as part of the means of protection against electric shock by Automatic Disconnection of supply (ADS) for an electrical installation forming part of a TT (or IT) system. In such cases, effective protection against electric shock is dependent upon the integrity of the installation earth electrode, the earthing conductor and the connection of the earthing conductor to the earth electrode.

It is necessary for the connection to be electrically and mechanically sound, labelled and protected against the external influences likely to be encountered at its location. The external influences to be protected against may include: the weather, corrosion caused by substances such as farm chemicals, animal urine etc, corrosion that can result if dissimilar metals are connected together in a damp or wet environment and physical damage from farm machinery, vehicles, gardening tools, animals, excavations, vandalism etc.

BS 7430 (the code of practice for earthing) gives guidance applicable to such a connection including the recommendations given

2. Requirements applicable to electrical connections :

2.1 General requirements applicable to all electrical connections :

BS 7671 places general requirements including the need for proper construction, protection against external influences and accessibility which are applicable to every electrical connection, ( with certain permitted exceptions).

2.1.1. Proper construction :

Every electrical joint and connection is to be of proper construction as regards conductance, insulation, mechanical strength and protection (Regulation 134.1.4 of BS 7671).

2.1.2. External influence :

The installation designer should consider, and where necessary protect against, all external influences likely to be encountered at the location of the joint or connection. Such external influences may include:

- ambient temperature (Regulation Group 522.1 refers),
- presence of water or high humidity (Regulation Group 522.3 refers),
- presence of corrosive or polluting substances such as farm chemicals or animal urine (Regulation Group 522.5 refers),
- impact such as physical damage from farm machinery, vehicles, excavations, vandalism, (Regulation Group 522.6 refers),
- presence of flora (such as mould) (Regulation Group 522.9 refers), and
- presence of fauna (such as livestock) (Regulation Group 522.10 refers).

2.1.3. Accessibility :

Every electrical connection and joint, including that at an earth electrode, is required, with certain permitted exceptions, to be accessible for inspection, testing and maintenance. (Regulation 526.3 refers). However, a connection of an earthing conductor to a buried earth plate made by welding, soldering or brazing. is a permitted exception and would not be required to be accessible. An appropriate compression tool is also a permitted exception, but may not be suitable for this application unless the earth plate comes equipped with a permanently connected earthing conductor.

2.2. Particular requirements applicable to the connection of an earthing conductor to an earth electrode :

BS 7671 gives additional requirements applicable to the connection of an earthing conductor to an earth electrode and Regulation 542.3.2, stated below for ease of reference, relates specifically to such a connection.

Regulation 542.3.2.

[ ‘The connection of an earthing conductor to an earth electrode or other means of earthing shall be soundly made and be electrically and mechanically satisfactory, and labelled in accordance with Regulation 514.13.1. It shall be suitably protected against corrosion.’ ]

The requirements embodied in Regulation 542.3.2 are that the connection must be:

- soundly made and electrically and mechanically satisfactory,
- labelled in accordance with Regulation 514.13.1, and
- suitably protected against corrosion.

 

[amberleaf]

2.2.1. Connection to be soundly made electrically & mechanically satisfactory :

The meaning of the phrase ‘soundly made and electrically and mechanically satisfactory’ is further explained in BS 7671.

Every connection between conductors and between conductors and equipment is to provide durable electrical continuity and adequate mechanical strength and protection. The selection of the means of connection is to take account of parameters such as the material of the conductor, the number and shape of the wires, their cross-sectional area and, where required, the need for adequate locking arrangements (Regulation 526.2 refers).

2.2.2. Labelled :

Regulation 514.13.1 requires that a permanent label to BS 951 with the words ‘Safety Electrical Connection - Do Not Remove" is permanently fixed in a visible position at or near the point of connection of every earthing conductor to an earth electrode.
Labelling requirements ( Typical Warning Label ) ***

2.2.3. Suitably protected against corrosion :

Corrosion during the life of an electrical installation may have a detrimental effect on the electrical connection to the earth electrode and therefore the likelihood of corrosion developing should be minimized. Where possible, such connections should be located away from corrosive influences. If this is not possible, materials resistant to corrosion should be used. BS 7430 Table 5 recommends materials to be used for earthing components. Dissimilar metals should not be used where these are likely to be in contact with each other in the presence of moisture. This effectively precludes the use of aluminium for final connections to electrodes. When connecting to a copper rod or a copper plate electrode, it is preferable to use copper conductors. Connections that may suffer corrosion should be given a protective coating of inhibitor paste or bitumastic paint, or be wrapped in self-amalgamating tape to protect against ingress of moisture. For further details reference should be made to BS 7430 Section 19.7.3.4 Jointing Conductors.

3. Recommendations :

BS 7430, the code of practice for earthing, gives further guidance on all aspects of earthing practice. A summary of the information given in BS 7430 . Section 14 of BS 7430 (Selection of an earthing conductor and connection to an electrode) gives recommendations which include the following:

- Galvanic corrosion is to be avoided both for an earth electrode and any earthing conductors installed in the ground
- Aluminium or copper-clad aluminium conductors should not be used in contact with soil and should not, under any circumstances, be used to make the final connection to an earth electrode.
- Connectors should be mechanically strong and securely fastened.
- All earth clamps should be inherently corrosion resistant.
- Where bolted, bolts should be tightened to a torque of 20 Newton-metres minimum.
- Any disconnection arrangements at the earth electrode to permit earth electrode testing must also meet the above requirements.

Information on earth clamps

example of the connection of an earthing conductor to a rod-type earth electrode. The connection will, in most cases, be bolted, and will need to be accessible. A pvc or cast concrete box or concrete or brick enclosure may be used to enclose and protect an earth electrode connection and provide means of access.

buried copper plate used as an earth electrode. The buried connection is inaccessible and must be made by one of the permitted means such as welding or brazing.

Rod type earth electrode connected to an earthing conductor .

 

[amberleaf]

Earth plate electrode connected to an earthing conductor .




4. Inspection & Testing :

Where an installation uses an earth electrode for protection against electrical hazards, the connection between the earthing conductor and the earth electrode must be verified both upon completion of the construction of the installation and during subsequent periodic inspections.

( Ask what the 17th can do for You )

● Erection and initial verification of electrical installations … Section 134
● Warning notice - earthing and bonding connections … 514.13
● Selection and erection in relation to external influences … Section 522
● Electrical connections … Section 526

Phil I must get to know how to down load Drawings as Well .

 

[Phil]

Phil I must get to know how to down load Drawings as Well .

click go advanced button, you will see a paper clip, click it and select the file on the computer. click reply and job done

 

[MTI]

Hi guys, just asked this elsewhere but seeing as this is the sticky, please see the below from elecsa website. Im also interested to know how i stand on this with commercial installations and commercial pir giving elecsa is concerned with domestic?

[h=2]What is required to carry out a Periodic?[/h] It is agreed and generally accepted that an above average knowledge of electrical installations is required to carry out Periodic Inspections, usually gained through years of experience on top of formal qualifications (eg. C&G 2391).
[h=2]ELECSA[/h] ELECSA will therefore only be offering assessments of competence to undertake Periodic Inspection and Testing to its Scheme A (full scope) registered contractors.
[h=2]What do I need to carry out Periodics with ELECSA?[/h] The process will involve the contractor either having a periodic assessment added onto his surveillance visit, or having it as a stand-alone assessment.
The contractor will be expected to have, in addition to the requirements of Part P:

1. City & Guilds 2391
2. IEE Guidance Note 3
3. A minimum of 2 Periodic Inspection reports for review.
4. A site visit will be made where a full and comprehensive Periodic Inspection has taken place

Any non-compliances will be notified to the contractor and advice given for them to address the issues raised.
[h=2]What happens when I have passed my Periodics Assessment with ELECSA?[/h]

• The contractor will then be able to electronically notify ELECSA of work done in the same way as with Part P. However, ELECSA will not notify building control as Periodic Inspections are not controlled under Building Regulations.
• The landlord or other person ordering the work will get the peace of mind that they have had work done by an independently assessed company.
• 3 yearly surveillance visits will be required.
• It is important to note that complaints received by ELECSA on the standard of the Periodic carried out will be investigated thoroughly and could potentially result in the withdrawal of a company’s approval.

[h=2]How much does it cost?[/h] ELECSA charges for Periodic Assessments:

• You need to take a Periodic Assessment when you take your Part P assessment, and the additional cost will be £240 + VAT (a total of £610 + VAT) for the initial assessment. For surveillance visits (which are only every 3 years) the additional cost is just £100 + VAT (a total of £470 + VAT when applied for and paid for together).
• Notification of Periodic Inspection - £1.50+VAT

THE ASSESSMENT APPROVAL PERIOD LASTS FOR 3 YEARS. YOU DO NOT REQUIRE AN ANNUAL ASSESSMENT ON YOUR ABILITY TO DO PERIODICS.

 

[Engineer54]

They actually have the cheek to make it sound as if they are doing you a favour taking this buckshee fee off you.

These scheme providers really are totally set-up to make you Sparks there own personal ''Cash Cows''... lol!! Quite Amazing really!!

 

[mspms]

Hi all. I heard today that next year there will be a change that will allow electricians that hold the 2391 being able to notify building control after notifiable works has been completed and tested, thus being signed off and no charge being imposed. As anyone else heard of this and if so can you expand?

 

[jainpranav111]

Want some more information about PIR reporting and usage

 

[nottz_spark]

May I be the first to vote this to be a sticky.

it appears you may !!

 

[MarkKruger]

My short & sharp point about this:
"Competent Person",is mentioned a lot in BS7671,it will also get used in a court room regularly.A "Competent Person" according to British Standards "Is a person that is suitably qualified to undertake the task at hand",therefore if you do NOT have the relevant qualifications for Testing & Inspecting electrical installations,you are NOT Competent-Period.

 

[nottz_spark]

Re: Pricing

My short & sharp point about this:"Competent Person",is mentioned a lot in BS7671,it will also get used in a court room regularly.A "Competent Person" according to British Standards "Is a person that is suitably qualified to undertake the task at hand",therefore if you do NOT have the relevant qualifications for Testing & Inspecting electrical installations,you are NOT Competent-Period.

this is another popular myth that you need to have academic qualifications to show competence,1 of the ways to prove you are competent is by having taking the relevant qualification but is not the only way,under the subject of required competence of test inspection personnel, Guidance note 3 states 'the inspector carrying out the inspection of any installation must,as appropriate have a sound knowledge and experince relevant to the nature of installation being tested and to the technical standards'. Many employers insist on you having 2391,but it is no way a legal requirement.