Points rasied by Annual MCS inspection

[Markc]

Had our first annual MCS inspection today. Very different from the first application assessment. Nice guy from the NICEIC and I thank him for raising some points I will post here:

1, It is important to test the properties smoke detectors prior to installations and after commissioning of a PV system. It is being investigated that in certain circumstances smoke detectors have failed to operate after a PV installation. The NICEIC claim the fire service is conducting its own investigation to this as well as other regulatory bodies.

2, Installation of inverters to communal RCD protection devices. Unless it can be confirmed in writing by the manufacture a inverter must not be installed to a communal RCD at 30mA where any other outgoing circuits requiring a disconnection time of 0.4s due to the time taken for voltage degradation by the inverter. G83 only requires inverters to drop to 0V in 5 seconds meaning any circuit that requires a disconnection time of 0.4s now has the ability to retain a voltage for a full 5 seconds. The example used was a 17th edition board, 2 overall RCD devices of 30mA. No none RCD protected ways. Final circuits being sockets, shower, cooker, lighting spread over two RCDs. One spare way used for the inverter protected by one of the two installed communal RCDs. This is none compliant and in direct contradiction to BS7671.
3, Ongoing test results of panels. All panels must be tested (as we all know) however it must be recorded and logged to the serial number and a location map detailing where a particular panel is on the roof on completion.
4, MCS Easy is not liked but accepted by the bodies. It pays to read it if you have it. Not wanting to upset the apple cart and I’m not knocking MCS EASY. Good luck to them and this comment is not against them it’s against those who have this system, have filed it and expect to pull it off the shelf in a few months’ time and wave it under the inspector’s nose. You will have a shock coming to you! YOU WILL be expected to pull any and all information out of the QMS and demonstrate as detailed within it you can source the information, document, file or folder easily and quickly. If you don’t know what your QMS says about where your sub-contractor agreement is kept I suggest you read it.
As I wrote our own QMS I received a comment that he was very impressed I knew my way around it.
5, Overall we did get a couple of N/C but for items that had been in our original assessment. I’m happy with the result and all the NC’s have been addressed and nothing more than paper work points.
Also we did have to do some testing this time which was great. At last they showed an interest in what we had DONE and not WRITTEN.

 

[SolarCity]

1, It is important to test the properties smoke detectors prior to installations and after commissioning of a PV system. It is being investigated that in certain circumstances smoke detectors have failed to operate after a PV installation. The NICEIC claim the fire service is conducting its own investigation to this as well as other regulatory bodies.

Thanks for the information, Mark. Some handy information there. I can't get my head around the smoke detector issue. How can the PV installation possibly affect the operation of them?

 

[s18mcn]

So having completed my first install the board was a dual rcd one i and used a spare way in tha. So does that mean it ill fail the mcs?

 

[Markc]

So having completed my first install the board was a dual rcd one i and used a spare way in tha. So does that mean it ill fail the mcs?

If that RCD also protects other outgoing circuits requiring 0.4 disconnection time and your inverter does not state that the voltage on the terminals will disappear in under 0.4s then yes.

 

[JD6400]

Biggs , i can not remember if you are solely solar or if you are a contractor as well ?
But if the latter , next time you install some smokes check out the instruction manual .
Not sure if all are the same but the ones we use have had a warning in them for well over a year or more , can not quite remember the exact reason at the moment but something to do with not having a true ac supply .

 

[Markc]

Thanks for the information, Mark. Some handy information there. I can't get my head around the smoke detector issue. How can the PV installation possibly affect the operation of them?

I don't know the full in's and out's and nor did Mr NICEIC. But Aico and the Fire Service are looking in to it. There;s nothing on either of their websites but I expect until there's been something confirmed there wouldn't be. MR NICEIC has suggested we start testing before and after and get it in writing. From what I have been told they get some form of interference and don't then work.

 

[SolarCity]

Biggs , i can not remember if you are solely solar or if you are a contractor as well ?
But if the latter , next time you install some smokes check out the instruction manual .
Not sure if all are the same but the ones we use have had a warning in them for well over a year or more , can not quite remember the exact reason at the moment but something to do with not having a true ac supply .

Haven't installed mains wired smoke detectors for years. To be honest, I've had very little to do with domestic electrics for a long time.

Could it be that the AC that the inverter produces is not 'clean' enough? I recently checked the AC wave with a customer of mine with an oscilloscope but it didn't appear to have much on an impact on the wave produced.

 

[dansk]

By testing, just functional testing of the button and making sure they trigger? Or burn some toast and make sure they trigger?

 

[Markc]

By testing, just functional testing of the button and making sure they trigger? Or burn some toast and make sure they trigger?

Why just toast. Why not set fire to the couch and see what happens!

I assume test button in all seriousness. Something to keep an eye open for.

 

[dansk]

I assume test button in all seriousness. Something to keep an eye open for.

What the toast or couch? Lol. Fair question though, and I've heard of this before, I will do soe checks, but I know mine at home are ok as the wife burns the salad often.

 

[JD6400]

I don't know the full in's and out's and nor did Mr NICEIC. But Aico and the Fire Service are looking in to it. There;s nothing on either of their websites but I expect until there's been something confirmed there wouldn't be. MR NICEIC has suggested we start testing before and after and get it in writing. From what I have been told they get some form of interference and don't then work.

Hi Mark , thats interesting !
It was a Aico instruction Manuel that i read it in a good 18 months - 2 years ago , i even called the manager at the wholesalers to get the bottom of it . But from memory got the usual service from newies that you come to expect and never heard back from him !
And yes Biggs it was some time ago but that is what it was i think !

 

[Markc]

Hi Mark , thats interesting !
It was a Aico instruction Manuel that i read it in a good 18 months - 2 years ago , i even called the manager at the wholesalers to get the bottom of it . But from memory got the usual service from newies that you come to expect and never heard back from him !
And yes Biggs it was some time ago but that is what it was i think !

As our inspector only visited on Friday I have not had time to look into this further but I'm going to see what I can find out and post further.

 

[Tiberius]

Getting fed up of all this "you must check this, you must do that" in our trade, were begining to end up looking like right money grabbers after everything we need to make sure is there or in place before we can even get a screw driver out.

So something might come out about having smoke alarms in the property, could end up being another cost and more paper work, yet the kitchen fitter does what he likes and provides no paper work because hes not an electrician. rant over.

Cheers for the info though, we got ours in two weeks.

 

[steveax3]

Hi Mark, regarding the point about connecting to a spare way of a communal RCD, the RCD would normally be a double pole device disconnecting both line and neutral to all the served final circuits, so I thought NICEIC previous best practice guidance indicated this was compliant? May be wrong on this, but keen to know one way or another for sure.