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Discuss Power shower wiring in the DIY Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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simjohnson

Hi wonder if anyone can help me with some conflicting info I'm getting.

My daughter has recently had a triton belize power shower replaced by Triton appt engineer. This shower replaced a previous Triton shower several years old. No RCD was fitted to the circuit when the new shower was fitted. The manufacturers instructions say that a 30mA RCD must be installed in all UK and electric pumped shower circuits and to this particular shower.

Problem came to light when another electrician did some work totally unrelated and pointed out that this was potentially dangerous and an RCD should have been fitted with the new shower. Manufacturers who sent the engineer to install it say one is not needed as purely a replacement shower in an existing circuit.

1. Can anyone advise is it dangerous not to have an RCD fitted?
2. What the regulations say as to whether an RCD should have been fitted in these circumstances?
Regards
Simon
 
The manufacturers instructions say that a 30mA RCD must be installed in all UK and electric pumped shower circuits and to this particular shower ...... Manufacturers who sent the engineer to install it say one is not needed as purely a replacement shower in an existing circuit.
Somewhat conflicting! The manuf instr say an RCD must be fitted so for me this means to fit this shower as a replacement or otherwise it must have an RCD? If the engineer from the manuf is saying it doesnt then I suggest you get something in black'n'white to countermand thier own manufactiuring instructions -- or atleast provide some rationale for why when their engineer fits it no RCD is required.

Or by "Triton appt engineer" is this just an engineer approved to fit the shower but not to make decisions for the manufacturer?!?!

I would suggest you contact the manufacturers direct to find out from them if an RCD should have been fitted ....
 

HandySparks

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OP; since you were clearly on here after post No.3, why not take the trouble to answer the question in post No.2 ?

Ignoring members who are trying to help doesn't go down well here.
 

wirepuller

Forum Mentor
Electrician's Arms
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Hi wonder if anyone can help me with some conflicting info I'm getting.

My daughter has recently had a triton belize power shower replaced by Triton appt engineer. This shower replaced a previous Triton shower several years old. No RCD was fitted to the circuit when the new shower was fitted. The manufacturers instructions say that a 30mA RCD must be installed in all UK and electric pumped shower circuits and to this particular shower.

Problem came to light when another electrician did some work totally unrelated and pointed out that this was potentially dangerous and an RCD should have been fitted with the new shower. Manufacturers who sent the engineer to install it say one is not needed as purely a replacement shower in an existing circuit.

1. Can anyone advise is it dangerous not to have an RCD fitted?No,not dangerous...an RCD in this circumstance is additional protection and prior to a regs change in 2008 was not required at all.
2. What the regulations say as to whether an RCD should have been fitted in these circumstances?The requirement now is for all circuits within a bath/shower room to be RCD protected,however the regulations are not retrospective and generally there is no requirement to meet current regulations for a like for like replacement where the original install met the requirements at the time.However manufacturers instructions must be taken into consideration,if the wording is MUST be RCD protected then it should be provided....if however it says SHOULD be RCD protected then the competant person replacing the unit is entitled to make a judgement call....either way IMO if other requirements are met and the RCD is additional protection only there is no danger.
Regards
Simon

...............
 

gnuuser

retired Industrial wire monkey
in my opinion adding an rcd would be a wise choice.
dealing with electricity in a wet environment without good protective measures is dangerous
because you don't see damage thats out of view. (loose connections or broken wires
and wet skin makes people conduct electricity muck better but not as good as the earth conductor.
an rcd will add another layer of protection for the consumer
if the original was not protected by an rcd definitely install one
 

wirepuller

Forum Mentor
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DIY
in my opinion adding an rcd would be a wise choice.
dealing with electricity in a wet environment without good protective measures is dangerous
because you don't see damage thats out of view. (loose connections or broken wires
and wet skin makes people conduct electricity muck better but not as good as the earth conductor.
an rcd will add another layer of protection for the consumer
if the original was not protected by an rcd definitely install one
So bath/shower room installations prior to 2008 were dangerous? Agreed an RCD is additional protection but as long as disconnection times are met by other means lack of additional RCD protection is NOT dangerous.
 
S

simjohnson

Thanks

OP; since you were clearly on here after post No.3, why not take the trouble to answer the question in post No.2 ?

Ignoring members who are trying to help doesn't go down well here.
Appreciate the advice just getting used to this as i'm new to this sorry if I have offended anyone not intended
 

Murdoch

Electrician's Arms
Hi wonder if anyone can help me with some conflicting info I'm getting.

My daughter has recently had a triton belize power shower replaced by Triton appt engineer. This shower replaced a previous Triton shower several years old. No RCD was fitted to the circuit when the new shower was fitted. The manufacturers instructions say that a 30mA RCD must be installed in all UK and electric pumped shower circuits and to this particular shower.

Problem came to light when another electrician did some work totally unrelated and pointed out that this was potentially dangerous and an RCD should have been fitted with the new shower. Manufacturers who sent the engineer to install it say one is not needed as purely a replacement shower in an existing circuit.

1. Can anyone advise is it dangerous not to have an RCD fitted?
2. What the regulations say as to whether an RCD should have been fitted in these circumstances?
Regards
Simon
Do the installation instructions say that? I'd be surprised if they do!
 
S

simjohnson

Do the installation instructions say that? I'd be surprised if they do!
Yes they really do will post the manufacturers instructions when I can get to them in next day or so away from my own computer so can't get to the copy I've . Thanks for the interest. Will post as soon as I get back to the PDF I have saved on my own machine. Simon
 
S

simjohnson

Electrical instalation instructions

These are the instalation instructions that come with the shower.
Para 5.1 mentions RCD Must Posted all electrical for info (sorry about delay just got back to machine it was stored on).


The installation, supply cable and circuit protection must conform with BS 7671 (IEE wiring regulations) and be sufficient for the amperage required.The following notes are for guidance only:
1 The shower must only be connected to a 230-240V ac supply. If you are installing a shower with a kilowatt rating above 9kW, it is advisable to contact the local electricity supply company.1.1 The electrical rating of the shower is shown on the rating label (Fig.3) within the unit.
2 Before making any sort of electrical connection within the installation make sure that no terminal is live. If in any doubt, switch off the whole installation at the mains supply and remove the correct fuse.
3 The shower must be connected to its own independent electrical circuit. IT MUST NOT be connected to a ring main, spur, socket outlet, lighting circuit or cooker circuit.
3.1 The electrical supply must be adequate for the loading of the unit and existing circuits.
4 Check your consumer unit (main fuse box) has a main switch rating of 80A or above and that it has a spare fuse way which will take the fuse or Miniature Circuit Breaker (MCB) necessary for the shower (Fig.4).4.1 If your consumer unit has a rating below 80A or if there is no spare fuse way, then the installation will not be straightforward and may require a new consumer unit serving the house or just the shower.4.2 You will need to contact the local electricity company. They will check the supply and carry out what is necessary.
WARNING!THIS APPLIANCE MUST BE EARTHED
Fig.3
MeterIncomingsupplyfuseMetertailsConsumerunitPull cordisolating switchShowerunitFuse orMCBRCD(can be part ofconsumer unit)80A or 100Amain switch
Fig.4
Schematic of installation circuit
Table A
MCB30/32A32A40A40A40A40/45A45Acartridgefuse30A35A35A45A45A45A45Aunit rating7.0kW7.5kW8.0kW8.5kW9.0kW9.5kW10.5kWCIRCUIT PROTECTIONElectric shower E-002-Acompany. They will check the supply and carry out what is necessary.
5 For close circuit protection DO NOT use a rewireable fuse. Instead use a suitably rated Miniature Circuit Breaker (MCB) or cartridge fuse(see Table A).
5.1 A 30mA residual current device (RCD) must be installed in all UK electric and pumped shower circuits. This may be part of the consumer unit or a separate unit.
6 A 45 amp double pole isolating switch with a minimum contact gap of 3 mm in both poles must be incorporated in the circuit.
6.1 It must have a mechanical indicator showing when the switch is in the OFF position, and the wiring must be connected to the switch without the use of a plug or socket outlet.
6.2 The switch must be accessible and clearly identifiable, but out of reach of a person using a fixed bath or shower, except for the cord of a cord operated switch, and should be placed so that it is not possible to touch the switch body while standing in a bath or shower cubicle. It should be readily accessible to switch off after using the shower.
7 Where shower cubicles are located in any rooms other than bathrooms, all socket outlets in those rooms must be protected by a 30mA RCD.
8 The current carrying capacity of the cable must be at least that of the shower circuit protection(see Table B).
8.1
To obtain full advantage of the power provided by the shower, use the shortest cable route possible from the consumer unit to the shower.
8.2 It is also necessary to satisfy the disconnection time and thermal constraints which means that for any given combination of current demand, voltage drop and cable size, there is a maximum permissible circuit length.
9 The shower circuit should be separated from other circuits by at least twice the diameter of the cable or conduit.
9.1 The current rating will be reduced if the cabling is bunched with others, surrounded by thermal loft or wall insulation or placed in areas where the ambient temperature is above 30°C. Under these conditions, derating factors apply and it is necessary to select a larger cable size.
9.2In the majority of installations, the cable will unavoidably be placed in one or more of the above conditions. This being so, it is strongly recommended to use a minimum of 10mm cabling
Table B
Note: Cable selection is dependent on derating factorsTwin and earth PVC insulated cableCurrent carrying capacityIn conduittrunking6 mm²38A10 mm²52A16 mm²69AInstalled in an insulated wall6 mm²35A10 mm²47A16 mm²63AClipped director buried in a non-insulated wall6 mm²47A10 mm²64A16 mm²85A
 

gnuuser

retired Industrial wire monkey
So bath/shower room installations prior to 2008 were dangerous? Agreed an RCD is additional protection but as long as disconnection times are met by other means lack of additional RCD protection is NOT dangerous.
i didnt see anything mentioned about the protection method already existing in the original post
thats why i posted the phrase without good protective measures.
i work with higher current levels so i tend to hang a bit on the cautious side.
 
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