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ghamilton

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Hello, I'm having problems with a GFCI circuit that feeds one outdoor outlet and two bathroom outlets. The GFCI breaker trips in the breaker panel. I have replaced the breaker with the same breaker type and the breaker still trips for an unknown reason. I am thinking about replacing these 3 outlets one at a time and see if the problem goes away. If nothing is plugged into any of these 3 outlets, I can test the outlet on our back porch and it shows 120vac. If I plug a lamp or even the digital display of the coffee maker into either of the outlets in the bathroom, it trips immediately. I setup video on the digital display of the coffee maker and even after resetting the breaker, it does not even light up for a second. If nothing is plugged into any of the 3 outlets, it will trip by itself in 30-60 seconds. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks, Greg Hamilton
 
hot or neutral to ground fault on the fixed wiring. probably need an electrician
As above. What I would add though is that because it trips after 30 to 60 seconds with nothing plugged in, is that the neutral to earth fault may not be arising from a direct connection between the neutral and earth, but its likely to be an "introduced" " connection between the 2.Sounds suspiciously like a " water fault" to me
 
Great points....both of you. I've had this problem for along time and have just dealt with it, so it's hard to imagine could be water, but I think you're on to something in pointing out that the fact the breaker stays on for a little bit with nothing plugged into should be a clue pointing me in the right direction. The weird thing is that I can use my voltmeter to check the 2 outlets in the bathroom and they don't trip the breaker when I put my leads in the outlet. I would have thought the voltmeter would pull about as much current as the one LED bulb on my coffee maker I was using to test the circuit.
 
Great points....both of you. I've had this problem for along time and have just dealt with it, so it's hard to imagine could be water, but I think you're on to something in pointing out that the fact the breaker stays on for a little bit with nothing plugged into should be a clue pointing me in the right direction. The weird thing is that I can use my voltmeter to check the 2 outlets in the bathroom and they don't trip the breaker when I put my leads in the outlet. I would have thought the voltmeter would pull about as much current as the one LED bulb on my coffee maker I was using to test the circuit.

A digital voltmeter is very high impedance and rarely affects the circuit being measured.
 
A digital voltmeter is very high impedance and rarely affects the circuit being measured.
Ah. Ok. I figured a very small LED bulb maybe 1/8" diameter would have a very low load, but I guess the dvm is even lower. Thanks. I think I'm going to remove the plates on the 4 outlets on the circuit and look for any obvious (dead mice, corrosion, loose connections, wires touching or too close, etc.). If I don't find anything, then actually remove the outlets one at a time and do my tests again. I actually found one more outlet on the circuit that's in the garage. Maybe while I have each outlet removed, just replace with new outlet so killing 2 birds with one stone. Maybe would be better to just remove 1 outlet, do my tests, but if continues to trip, just leave the outlets removed and just put wire nuts on the wires for safety purposes. If still trips breaker with all 4 outlets removed when I put a small load on the circuit, then maybe points to the actual wiring between the breaker and the 4 outlets. Note: my breaker in the breaker panel is GFCI, but all 4 outlets are just regular outlets or non-GFCI.
 
If you are able to safely isolate the circuit from the panel and can verify that all outlets are dead afterwards, you could try checking for any low impedance between the L (hot) and E (ground) as well as between the N (cold) and E. Ideally you would use an insulation tester that can test with 500V but if its a N-E style short somewhere it will show at low voltage as well.

Then try disconnecting at somewhere around half-way to see if the fault is in the still-connected part or not. Divide and conquer.

But really you need to be sure you have a dead circuit to test or you might be the dead one!

If in doubt do it during the day when you can simply cut the whole house's power. Using a multimeter to "provde dead" is bad practice as there are many ways it can go wrong. Better to use a dedicated voltage tester such as this:

Cheap, does one job, but does it reliably. Having said that, always check your tester is working on a live socket or dedicated "proving unit" just before you use it!
 
If you are able to safely isolate the circuit from the panel and can verify that all outlets are dead afterwards, you could try checking for any low impedance between the L (hot) and E (ground) as well as between the N (cold) and E. Ideally you would use an insulation tester that can test with 500V but if its a N-E style short somewhere it will show at low voltage as well.

Then try disconnecting at somewhere around half-way to see if the fault is in the still-connected part or not. Divide and conquer.

But really you need to be sure you have a dead circuit to test or you might be the dead one!

If in doubt do it during the day when you can simply cut the whole house's power. Using a multimeter to "provde dead" is bad practice as there are many ways it can go wrong. Better to use a dedicated voltage tester such as this:

Cheap, does one job, but does it reliably. Having said that, always check your tester is working on a live socket or dedicated "proving unit" just before you use it!
Okay, thanks.
If you are able to safely isolate the circuit from the panel and can verify that all outlets are dead afterwards, you could try checking for any low impedance between the L (hot) and E (ground) as well as between the N (cold) and E. Ideally you would use an insulation tester that can test with 500V but if its a N-E style short somewhere it will show at low voltage as well.

Then try disconnecting at somewhere around half-way to see if the fault is in the still-connected part or not. Divide and conquer.

But really you need to be sure you have a dead circuit to test or you might be the dead one!

If in doubt do it during the day when you can simply cut the whole house's power. Using a multimeter to "provde dead" is bad practice as there are many ways it can go wrong. Better to use a dedicated voltage tester such as this:

Cheap, does one job, but does it reliably. Having said that, always check your tester is working on a live socket or dedicated "proving unit" just before you use it!
Okay, thanks. I removed the cover for the outlet outside since I figured it was most likely to be the culprit since outside. Both screws that hold the cover on ended up breaking due to corrosion. That's pretty awesome because it commits me to replacing the workbox since that's what the screws broke off in. I went ahead and removed the outlet from the wiring. With the outlet removed, I was able to determine the order of the circuit because at that point I still had one good circuit and 3 that weren't working. I went to the 1st outlet in the circuit which is in the garage, removed the cover, didn't see anything obvious. I pulled the outlet out so I could inspect the wiring. Two black and two white wires going into the back of the outlet in quick disconnect sockets with 12awg romex on 1984 house. Two of those wires had at least 1/4" of exposed copper where fit into back of outlet. Also noted the 4 screws on sides of outlet, two on either side, were not screwed in at all. Was hopeful problem was some of these hot exposed wires and screws being crammed back in workbox making contact with something it shouldn't or being too close. I pulled the outlet completely out of the workbox so none of these exposed wires or screws could be hitting anything or too close, but when I tested it, the breaker immediately tripped again. I removed the outlet from the wiring and put the LED load on the hot wire and neutral and tripped breaker again. I installed brand new outlet, tested and tripped again. Removed panel to breaker panel, saw 2 dead geckos under main breaker, looked like maybe touching or close to bus bars coming out of bottom of main breaker. Powered off main breaker, had my headlamp on, removed geckos, powered back on main breaker, tested, still tripped breaker. I'm pretty sure I've isolated it to the breaker itself or how it's wired. I noticed on this new breaker that I installed a year or so ago that there's one black wire and one white wire going into the side of the breaker, but there's also a socket on the breaker that's labeled load neutral that doesn't have a wire in it, so I'm wondering if I have the breaker installed correctly or not.
 
Can you show a pic of this breaker.
Yes. The Type QPF is the new breaker. The QF120 is what I'm calling the old breaker. The sad reality though is that I can't swear what the old breaker was. I put the new breaker in a year or so ago, it seems like everything started working again and then I threw away the old breaker. The picture of the QF120 that I'm calling the old breaker is actually a picture of the only other GFCI breaker in the panel. It controls the outlet on the front porch, probably the guest bathroom outlets and the other outlets in the garage, thankfully the one(s) that our two deep freezers are plugged into. I can't think of any reason that the older, remaining GFCI breaker should not be exactly like the one I replaced originally. I wish I'd taken more pictures of the "new" breaker and that empty socket that said load neutral. I thought I did, but I guess my phone camera didn't go off when I thought it did. I've also attached pictures of the breaker panel and fried geckos. I'm starting to wonder if there could be additional debris in the breaker panel back behind the breakers and maybe too close to the bus bars the breakers plug into. Another thing could be that I actually have additional outlets on this circuit. I've also listed a link for the breaker I just ordered. Thanks.

 

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Okay, thanks.

Okay, thanks. I removed the cover for the outlet outside since I figured it was most likely to be the culprit since outside. Both screws that hold the cover on ended up breaking due to corrosion. That's pretty awesome because it commits me to replacing the workbox since that's what the screws broke off in. I went ahead and removed the outlet from the wiring. With the outlet removed, I was able to determine the order of the circuit because at that point I still had one good circuit and 3 that weren't working. I went to the 1st outlet in the circuit which is in the garage, removed the cover, didn't see anything obvious. I pulled the outlet out so I could inspect the wiring. Two black and two white wires going into the back of the outlet in quick disconnect sockets with 12awg romex on 1984 house. Two of those wires had at least 1/4" of exposed copper where fit into back of outlet. Also noted the 4 screws on sides of outlet, two on either side, were not screwed in at all. Was hopeful problem was some of these hot exposed wires and screws being crammed back in workbox making contact with something it shouldn't or being too close. I pulled the outlet completely out of the workbox so none of these exposed wires or screws could be hitting anything or too close, but when I tested it, the breaker immediately tripped again. I removed the outlet from the wiring and put the LED load on the hot wire and neutral and tripped breaker again. I installed brand new outlet, tested and tripped again. Removed panel to breaker panel, saw 2 dead geckos under main breaker, looked like maybe touching or close to bus bars coming out of bottom of main breaker. Powered off main breaker, had my headlamp on, removed geckos, powered back on main breaker, tested, still tripped breaker. I'm pretty sure I've isolated it to the breaker itself or how it's wired. I noticed on this new breaker that I installed a year or so ago that there's one black wire and one white wire going into the side of the breaker, but there's also a socket on the breaker that's labeled load neutral that doesn't have a wire in it, so I'm wondering if I have the breaker installed correctly or not.
You just answered your own question and it’s your breaker that’s the problem. The white neutral in the same cable should be hooked to the load neutral on the breaker and the factory white wire hooks to the neutral bar. Problem solved
 

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