rcd in kitchen

[andrewcann]

hi all just want to check that i am right have been ask to check over another sparks work in a first floor flat all he has done is added 3 new sockets in the kitchen the only thing is it is a old ccu with rewireble fuse and no rcd as the cables are buried in the wall it needs to be on a rcd. one of the new sockets is spured of a old scocket chase in the wall and down down by 600mm and am i right in it still need to be on a rcd just wanted to make sure before i say anythink to the customer

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Sockets intended for general use and cables buried at less than 50mm should be on an RCD to comply with the current Bs7671....rewirable 3036 fuses are still an acceptable means of overcurrent and fault protection.
Bs 7671 is not statutory though, and it may be that the installer has taken the view that as no other circuits are RCD protected there is no point in providing RCD protection for just 3 additional sockets,the installation will not be any worse than before..and if it is a first floor flat,the sockets are not likely to supply equipment outdoors...I have some sympathy with that view,although not strictly correct.
More importantly has the main bonding and earthing been confirmed as adequate?

 

[andrewcann]

yes all the main bonding ie gas and water is in 10mm its just as it was in a kitchen and comes under special locations and cables are buried needs to be on a rcd think he has put cables in 20mm tube so not sure if thats why its not on a rcd

 

[GaryM]

A kitchen isn't a special location.

 

[Guest112]

if he adapted an existing circuit and surfaced his cable like you said in tube wouldnt he be exempt from adding an rcd to protect the cables? could be wrong i would recommend it to the customer anyway and make a note of it also

 

[SPARTYKUS]

good practise these days to fit one though!

 

[trev]

I read "Been asked to check another sparks work" and I thought walk away mate

 

[andrewcann]

sorry was ment to say as its under part p area and the tube is buried in the wall

 

[telectrix]

think he said it's buried in tube. anyway, although not a special location it is notifiable.

 

[GaryM]

All electrical work in dwellings is subject to Part P.

Though I know you mean notifiable

 

[Guest112]

ah right didnt see the buried bit so added cable to an existing circuit, but the new cable isnt protected by earthed mechanical protection or 50mm deep in the wall so must have rcd protection or exempt because its minor works??

 

[robsparky1975]

If it was me an to cover my own back i would at least fit an rcd spur for the additional sockets,its not pretty but at least meets the regs,im not sure how the niceic etc would view the practise carried out on this one as in theory it does not meet the regs but as already posted he has made the installation no worse than it was before,and when a client just wants a few extra sockets they dont want to pay for all that extra work and they think we are pulling a fast one,i am quoting for wiring an upstairs extension at present no rcd on sockets,will i be incorporating rcd protection oh yes.

 

[GaryM]

As long as you consider the cable route to the RCD fused spur otherwise that may require RCD protection.....

 

[Deleted member 26818]

ah right didnt see the buried bit so added cable to an existing circuit, but the new cable isnt protected by earthed mechanical protection or 50mm deep in the wall so must have rcd protection or exempt because its minor works??

There's no requirement for earthed mechanical protection.

 

[malcolmsanford]

As WP stated the electrician most likely assessed by test ie the Zs of the Ring final that the existing installation met the ADS of the BS 3036 Fuses, and omitted the use of RCD protection, also being a first floor flat may have also influenced him/her

Again there is nothing wrong in this if as the designer you feel that is safe to do so........................that is until something went wrong!!

The very start of the Regulations in it's introduction advises us that

"The Regulations apply to the design,erection and verification of all electrical installations, also including additions and alterations to existing installations............."

So by omission of RCD protection for the sockets as per regulation 411.3.3 and for the cable 522.6.6 then it would be unwise to advise the client all is well IMO.

 

[Octopus]

Isn't it nuts that there is still a debate about RCD's in domestic premises.

IMHO extra sockets = RCD protection. (and yes quoting to include RCD's has cost me business)!

 

[Q.S.]

The work above is notifiable as it is a kitchen under Part P. All the additions need to meet the regs to meet Part P therefore the LAW, so it needs RCD protection - 1) cables buried in walls less then 50mm and not in a nail/ screw prof conduit, 2) general purpose sockets rated 20 amps or less for use by home owner.
If the work was done less then 6 months ago then go after the electrician if more than that the home owner is likely to be prosecuted by building control. (max £5K fine + £50 for everyday it is not sorted!)

 

[Deleted member 9648]

The work above is notifiable as it is a kitchen under Part P. All the additions need to meet the regs to meet Part P therefore the LAW, so it needs RCD protection - 1) cables buried in walls less then 50mm and not in a nail/ screw prof conduit, 2) general purpose sockets rated 20 amps or less for use by home owner.
If the work was done less then 6 months ago then go after the electrician if more than that the home owner is likely to be prosecuted by building control. (max £5K fine + £50 for everyday it is not sorted!)

Just to clarify post #2 which I posted was not intended to suggest that RCD protection should be omitted for minor alterations such as the OP describes...But that I can sympathise with the view that providing RCD protection to the small additional work just to comply with the regs,when none of the rest of the install is protected,and wouldnt need to be prior to 2008....is plain daft.Of course the installer will want to cover his rear,but if you think about it this really defies logic....I was sincerely hoping that the BGB would clarify this and allow a competant person to assess the risks, and omit RCD protection to minor alterations to older installations, which are otherwise satisfactory and where the owner does not want the whole install updated.....As a result of this daftness we have RCD FCU's being installed all over the place for a light...or a socket...just because a new bit of buried cable a foot long has been added...and the rest of the install remains 'unprotected'.....just as it has for decades without the occupants dropping like flies.
That said Q.S is quite correct in what he says....except nobody polices part P so the chances of anyone being prosecuted are about nil.