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Morning,

just checking my theory, I have been asked to wire up a panel that would turn on a red beacon if any one of 4 circuit breakers was turned off.
just wondering how you guys think is the best way? I was thinking of buying 4 x 230v relays an taking a phase of each breaker to the a1 on the relay...
the other problem that I may have is that the mains into the panel has no neutral just 3 phases but it does have a 24v transformer with a false neutral.
so 4 x 3phase circuit breakers all turned on and if one of them or all of them was turned off to work on the system a red beacon would light in another area of the building

cheers
 
Limited info..

What happens in a power failure or phase down?
Would you need a battery back up?


Not sure rob what your saying here most standard mcb's don't have Aux' contacts or an ability to add them?

There are devices out their designed for monitoring power loss as you have a issue having no N here to pull in a standard relay but caution you need to ensure any phase failure relay or other monitoring device you choose will not back feed a voltage down the tripped circuit hence I didn't suggest coupling 2 circuits to 1 400 v coil on a contactor or relay.

If you can replace or are fitting the mcb's yourself then robs suggestion of a MCB with auxillary contacts is easiest option.
 
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Thanks for reply guys, no aux contacts on breakers, it's basically a fire suppression system that we have and when we work on the system we turn the 4 mains breakers off to the 4 pumps so that it dosent activate over production accidentally, the problem we have had is people forgetting about the pump breakers being off which is obviously a massive hns issue so they have planned to have a lighting box another part of the building identifying if all breakers are on or not.
would I not be right is saying take 1 phase of each breaker to the coil on 4 separate relays therefore when the breaker is switched off the coil drops voltage opening a contact and somehow putting 24vac to the beacon? Slightly confused about this one, especially with having a false neutral :S

cheers
 
I always found training using a written system of work followed by written warnings work best.

It’s a fire system, last time I had anything to with one, cost didn’t come in to it.
 
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How is a light going to help here? It'll be on the whole time you are working on the system and so nobody will think twice about seeing the light on all day.
It'll be like a car alarm, nobody does anything about them going off apart from grumbling a bit.

When working on productions using smoke machines etc we usually have to have fire detection isolated in various parts of theatres, I've seen a few different methods used, some good some bad.
The bad ones usually involve gaffer tape and plastic bags etc.
The good ones either have a permit to isolate system with a requirement to de-isolate and sign the paperwork again. Or some have a timer controlled system where pushing the isolate button last for 1 hour and you either push it again or it de-isolates itself.
 
How is a light going to help here? It'll be on the whole time you are working on the system and so nobody will think twice about seeing the light on all day.
It'll be like a car alarm, nobody does anything about them going off apart from grumbling a bit.

When working on productions using smoke machines etc we usually have to have fire detection isolated in various parts of theatres, I've seen a few different methods used, some good some bad.
The bad ones usually involve gaffer tape and plastic bags etc.
The good ones either have a permit to isolate system with a requirement to de-isolate and sign the paperwork again. Or some have a timer controlled system where pushing the isolate button last for 1 hour and you either push it again or it de-isolates itself.
plastic bags?

fools.

rubber gloves are better.
 
Limited info..

What happens in a power failure or phase down?
Would you need a battery back up?


Not sure rob what your saying here most standard mcb's don't have Aux' contacts or an ability to add them?

There are devices out their designed for monitoring power loss as you have a issue having no N here to pull in a standard relay but caution you need to ensure any phase failure relay or other monitoring device you choose will not back feed a voltage down the tripped circuit hence I didn't suggest coupling 2 circuits to 1 400 v coil on a contactor or relay.

If you can replace or are fitting the mcb's yourself then robs suggestion of a MCB with auxillary contacts is easiest option.


Most industrial rated MCBs will have the ability to fit an aux contact to the side.
 
Most industrial rated MCBs will have the ability to fit an aux contact to the side.
Read my first line and last line...

The OP never said the installation background and I also said and agreed with your suggestion but will disagree that most most industrial mcbs are adaptable - yes modern ones are but your ignoring the many generations before them which are not and info we lack hence I was careful not to assume what the existing set up was, now we have been drip fed info we have other factors to consider it now seems its part of a Fire suppression system and he says phase failure and full power loss would be a problem.. so this would have to be a set-up with battery back up which gave both a visual and audible warning or ... a in house protocol that the system is manually managed and checked and signed off frequently.


This is one of those questions that get more complex the more the thread develops as we get extra info ... so would in the context of the OP situation advice he get someone in to look at it if this is relative to fire safety ... would continuous pumping only be a production worry or is this pumping a flammable product that could feed a possible fire situe ??? we don't know hence I asked a barrage of questions.

The fact the OP's been asked to address this mean it would suggest either a safety issue or production losses so through a forum its hard to give a solution without all the facts which we dont have.
 
Thanks for reply guys, no aux contacts on breakers, it's basically a fire suppression system that we have and when we work on the system we turn the 4 mains breakers off to the 4 pumps so that it dosent activate over production accidentally, the problem we have had is people forgetting about the pump breakers being off which is obviously a massive hns issue so they have planned to have a lighting box another part of the building identifying if all breakers are on or not.
would I not be right is saying take 1 phase of each breaker to the coil on 4 separate relays therefore when the breaker is switched off the coil drops voltage opening a contact and somehow putting 24vac to the beacon? Slightly confused about this one, especially with having a false neutral :S

cheers

Some things worrying me here, I wonder what it is?

The systems I’ve worked on the diesel pumps would have fired up at this point.


Well I’ll be damned, it’s a H&S issue! Too bloody right it is.

You really have to look at your systems of work because from what I’ve read so far, you haven’t a clue what you are doing.

I think a flashing light on a panel is the least of your worries. It's blue ones on top of the fire engines are what I’d be worrying about.
 
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Presume this is a protein foam suppression system, I have only really seen these in Airport plane hangers, and usually backed up with its own dedicated generator. Most systems, are monitored for phase failure, by phase induction coils, clipped around each outgoing phase cable. If one or all phases go down it reports back to the fire alarm panel, and the suppression control panel. No neutral is required, as it is an inductive monitoring, with controller being supplied by the 24v from suppression panel.....so answer is, this should already be fitted.

For what suppression is all about....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpOwkchy9Bw
 
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Read my first line and last line...

The OP never said the installation background and I also said and agreed with your suggestion but will disagree that most most industrial mcbs are adaptable - yes modern ones are but your ignoring the many generations before them which are not and info we lack hence I was careful not to assume what the existing set up was, now we have been drip fed info we have other factors to consider it now seems its part of a Fire suppression system and he says phase failure and full power loss would be a problem.. so this would have to be a set-up with battery back up which gave both a visual and audible warning or ... a in house protocol that the system is manually managed and checked and signed off frequently.


This is one of those questions that get more complex the more the thread develops as we get extra info ... so would in the context of the OP situation advice he get someone in to look at it if this is relative to fire safety ... would continuous pumping only be a production worry or is this pumping a flammable product that could feed a possible fire situe ??? we don't know hence I asked a barrage of questions.

The fact the OP's been asked to address this mean it would suggest either a safety issue or production losses so through a forum its hard to give a solution without all the facts which we dont have.
Totally agree.
The circuitry to get the function the OP wants really isn't altogether complicated logic.
A few relays with NC contacts and a suitable supply to drive the beacon - job done.
Whether it's acceptable as a safety measure is an altogether different matter.
 
Morning,

just checking my theory, I have been asked to wire up a panel that would turn on a red beacon if any one of 4 circuit breakers was turned off.
just wondering how you guys think is the best way? I was thinking of buying 4 x 230v relays an taking a phase of each breaker to the a1 on the relay...
the other problem that I may have is that the mains into the panel has no neutral just 3 phases but it does have a 24v transformer with a false neutral.
so 4 x 3phase circuit breakers all turned on and if one of them or all of them was turned off to work on the system a red beacon would light in another area of the building

cheers

http://www.schneider-electric.co.uk...on/en/local/acti-9/Acti9-Launch-Catalogue.pdf

Great stuff. U can add auxiliaries to mcbs. Great for modular builds
 
Think we lost the OP here ... maybe he's realised the safety implications of adapting a fire suppression system and the responsibility that it comes with this but always nice to have our advice acknowledged or not in this case :confused:
 
The systems I’ve worked on the diesel pumps would have fired up at this point.

I think they covered all the bases when they built the "new" Metro plant at Longbridge in the late 70's. The sprinkler system was run by 2 electric pumps (main & standby) which kicked in when a pressure drop was detected, if the power went out a diesel pump took over but if all failed there were 2 big "header" tanks on a hill next to the building that would gravity feed the system!
 
Don’t worry, we had plenty of water to spare. Our own canal and two feeder reservoirs. Plus a 300,000 gallon header tank in the roof of the main shop. The main shop was 120' high.
Believe it or not, you need a lot of water to make iron. Loss of water could result in a major explosion.

One of the tricky jobs I got lumbered with was emptying and refilling the header tank. Three times in one shutdown! The water is treated so you can’t just dump it back in the canal.
You try loosing 900,000 gallons of water. 600,000 gallons went in various settling ponds and clarifiers, 300,000 gallons of untreated water disappeared mysteriously over several nights.

Anyone who thinks being a “maintenance electrician” has anything to do with that weird electrictrickery stuff is deluded.

I loved every moment of it, no two days were the same. If I could I’d be back in the fray tomorrow.
 
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I think they covered all the bases when they built the "new" Metro plant at Longbridge in the late 70's. The sprinkler system was run by 2 electric pumps (main & standby) which kicked in when a pressure drop was detected, if the power went out a diesel pump took over but if all failed there were 2 big "header" tanks on a hill next to the building that would gravity feed the system!

Would it not have made sense to start with the gravity system? What with gravity being the least likely power source to fail ;)
 

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