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seppe

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I currently have an old type rewireable fuse unit & I wish to run power to my garage to supply a light and some sockets. The cables will be run inside the house as the garage is attached but aprox 10m away from fuse board. I’ve had 4 people come and look at the job each have told me a different thing which is right or are they all right? What would you recommend?

  • Run a cable from the existing main switch to a new fuse board in the garage.
  • I need to have my old fuse board change as it is an old type and that way I would also have a spare fuse to run the new circuit.
  • spur off a socket from kitchen in to the garage
  • run a cable from an already used fuse to a new fuse board in the garage, but might need to up rate the fuse wire due to the extra load.
 
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uksel

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
If you are using the 4mm cable, and you take the cable as being 15m long then the maximum demand allowable for these conditions is 5999 Watts, or 25amps

this would cover you for a radial circuit for power and a single lighting circuit
 
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12345aob

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
I currently have an old type rewireable fuse unit & I wish to run power to my garage to supply a light and some sockets. The cables will be run inside the house as the garage is attached but aprox 10m away from fuse board. I’ve had 4 people come and look at the job each have told me a different thing which is right or are they all right? What would you recommend?

  • Run a cable from the existing main switch to a new fuse board in the garage.
  • I need to have my old fuse board change as it is an old type and that way I would also have a spare fuse to run the new circuit.
  • spur off a socket from kitchen in to the garage
  • run a cable from an already used fuse to a new fuse board in the garage, but might need to up rate the fuse wire due to the extra load.
don't use a spur- there's too much load.

you should really change the fuse board as it will protect your whole house and be future proof.

as for running any cable without rcd protection- it's not a great idea.
 
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uksel

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
100% right

i wont work on old rewireable fuseboards now. if they need work done they should upgrade, otherwise it wouldn't pass any test/inspection regardless of the work done.
 
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uksel

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
each to their own i guess - i have liability insurance that i don't intend on using.

rewireable fuseboards are a no for me, no rcd's, no tripping times

no thanks from me - carry on you!
 
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seppe

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
Thanks for the help guys! But I take it as i have no other option but to have a new fuseboard fitted?
 
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12345aob

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
Thanks for the help guys! But I take it as i have no other option but to have a new fuseboard fitted?
I think it’s the best option, you could split the tails and insert another cu- but for the difference in price I would advise new cu.

If you ever want any other circuits or modifications (new shower/cooker/socket outlets) or to sell your property - it makes it a lot easier
 
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uksel

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
I`d love to hear how a re-wireable fuseboard can never pass an inspection, no matter what remedial work is carried out!
how many code 4's do you think is acceptable when testing an installation?

i like to keep that number relatively low
 
The best option must surely be determined by what work the customer requires to be carried out. Changing the fuseboard to enable an extra socket to be fitted would be unfair on the customer unless they were first made aware of the available options.
 
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piggyitm

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
I find UKSEL's rule of thumb is quite impractical myself!Code 4s like not having brown sleeving on on a line conductor at a switch or having socket or switch outlets outside the building regs hight requirements,to name but a few,shouldn't be a money spinner in a domestic sparks interpretation of the law!I'm all for advising on how to cut upgrade costs for the customer within the scope of BS7671.Although i did take my van into the garage the other day and got charged for the rubber gloves they had to wear while they fixed it!:eek:
 
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uksel

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
it's not a money making scam, or i don't feel it unneccessary. changing an old fuse board to a new one which will comply is not a massive job.

also the guy isn't just putting a new socket in, he's running supply to a seperate building, which includes the provision for a new circuit, which would require a full test

i'd also add that he doesn't have any spare ways in his current distribution board which means you would be loading the supply with sockets lighting and whatever else is on the existing circuits. not only will these sockets be able to supply 240V to outside of the equipotential zone, it also wont offer any earth fault or current inbalance protection.

i again would strongly suggest upgrading the distribution board, either that or dont bother doing to work in the garage. i for one wouldn't be doing it any other way.

as for always chaging the board, i dont mean i wouldnt change a light fitting or socket face, of course these small remedial tasks wouldn't require such action, but if anything is to be changed or altered at the dis board, ie. new circuits etc.

i won't even do a periodic inspection on them, purely because if the **** does ever hit the fan, i've signed a piece of paper to say that the entire installation is 100% with no risk of death or injury what-so-ever, and i do not believe an installation of such age, with it's methods of protection can truly offer this.

upgrade upgrade upgrade
 
it's not a money making scam, or i don't feel it unneccessary. changing an old fuse board to a new one which will comply is not a massive job.

also the guy isn't just putting a new socket in, he's running supply to a seperate building, which includes the provision for a new circuit, which would require a full test

i'd also add that he doesn't have any spare ways in his current distribution board which means you would be loading the supply with sockets lighting and whatever else is on the existing circuits. not only will these sockets be able to supply 240V to outside of the equipotential zone, it also wont offer any earth fault or current inbalance protection.

i again would strongly suggest upgrading the distribution board, either that or dont bother doing to work in the garage. i for one wouldn't be doing it any other way.

as for always chaging the board, i dont mean i wouldnt change a light fitting or socket face, of course these small remedial tasks wouldn't require such action, but if anything is to be changed or altered at the dis board, ie. new circuits etc.

i won't even do a periodic inspection on them, purely because if the **** does ever hit the fan, i've signed a piece of paper to say that the entire installation is 100% with no risk of death or injury what-so-ever, and i do not believe an installation of such age, with it's methods of protection can truly offer this.

upgrade upgrade upgrade
Don`t get me wrong - I agree with most of what you say BUT refusing to do a PIR because of personal preferences could well be seen as unprofessional. A PIR is merely a report on the current condition of an installation after all.

The requirement for upgrades needs to be tempered with a great deal of common sense and good communication with the customer - which is why mine always use plain English not the `teccho babble` which is all too common amongst the scam artists (which, ironically, they probably don`t understand themselves!).:)
 
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piggyitm

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
Its funny that any competent person can do a PIR.There's no need for registration but no cash from any remedials!Just the £147 in the bag for next to sod all tool work!!!
 
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uksel

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
Don`t get me wrong - I agree with most of what you say BUT refusing to do a PIR because of personal preferences could well be seen as unprofessional. A PIR is merely a report on the current condition of an installation after all.

The requirement for upgrades needs to be tempered with a great deal of common sense and good communication with the customer - which is why mine always use plain English not the `teccho babble` which is all too common amongst the scam artists (which, ironically, they probably don`t understand themselves!).:)
you're absolutely right. i've got to hold my hands up, i don't know why i said that really as i would carry out a PIR on an older installation. i would still recommend upgrading even the distribution board, or installing a safety switch incorporating an RCD between the meter and the CU and would explain the safety implications of leaving the board as it were.

and i would still not run power to an outbuilding from the CU. a landlords house i visited recently where the previous owner had been a DIY enthusiast, run everything off existing circuits willy nilly, including running 2.5 flex to a garage 25 meteres away (spurred of the existing ringmain) to feed about 6 double sockets, six double fluorescent fittings and two outside lights :yikes:
 
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pmelec

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
I can see this is now an old thread, and as such there will probably be better solutions offered to similar problems in other treads.. I'm new to this forum but find from reading this, no one has offered a confident final solution other than CU replacement.. which is fine, but as we all know the customer is not going to just turn around & ok this extent of work unless they have been considering it or have been stretching out the inevitable...

If a 100mA RCD is fitted between meter & CU (as 'uksel' suggested above) this would not only offer some form of RCD protection to the old fuse board, but also allow a distribution circuit to be added.. I.E. a run to a Garage Unit (E-GARAGE63, Denmans) which would b fitted with 30mA RCCB + MCBs for Additional Protection..

In typing this I have just realised that I have answered my own question.. why are you guys running away from this old fuse board?? because in fitting the RCD at Source we are now liable for the whole board!! understandably a good reason to fit whole new CU or walk... So why could we not insist on a full PIR first to highlight any existing faults; then fit as above with Installation Cert for New circuit. Allowing the customer to get us back to fit a New CU when they finally realize the they are now safer in the Garage than the house..
 
Im guessing it's down to cost, fitting a main RCD up front is not ideal but is a far cheeper option, still a little un clear as to if this non compliant or just not good practise.
 

FatBob

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Arms
A 100mA RCD fitted up stream of a 30mA RCD might still trip for before the 30mA, it depends on the individual components. The only way to RCD cascade a distribution circuit is to use a 100mA time delayed RCD, which will not count as additional protection (415), nor would a normal 100mA for that matter
 
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georges

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
bs7671 talks about rewireable fuses so if the customer can have the job done with in the regs for the price they want so happy with the cost. its like some people want the work and some see it as a problem and would like to live in the perfect world
 

GLENNSPARK

-
Arms
100% right

i wont work on old rewireable fuseboards now. if they need work done they should upgrade, otherwise it wouldn't pass any test/inspection regardless of the work done.
what complete twaddle this is...lol.....as long as the enclosure is still sound...and the fuses are of the correct rating+disconnection times have been met...then whats up with fuses to BS3036?....if you need additional protection by means of RCD for the work YOU carry out....then do so.....but that doesn`t mean you condemn a perfectly servicable piece of equipment on a whim.....this goes for PIRs/EICRs n all....
 

GLENNSPARK

-
Arms
A 100mA RCD fitted up stream of a 30mA RCD might still trip for before the 30mA, it depends on the individual components. The only way to RCD cascade a distribution circuit is to use a 100mA time delayed RCD, which will not count as additional protection (415), nor would a normal 100mA for that matter
yes Bob but Leigh n I have come across several scenarios where 100mA RCDs have been used as an attempt at acheaving discrimination.....it all depends on the actual tripping current of the individual device and the amount of earth leakage its being subjected to.....
 
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pmelec

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #27
I agree It would be good practice to first measure the total earth leakage and determine weather or not this RCD would be subject to nuisance tripping caused by the sum of appliances on original finals.. Although, I would have thought 100mA would be most cases (average domestic), provide adequate scope.
And no, it wouldn't provide addition protection to the original circuits, but we would achieve a source to add the Garage Unit.. My concern is in adding this RCD in front of the original Fuse board would we now be liable for the whole installation or would this job be classed as an additional circuit?
 
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SPARTYKUS

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #28
Whole installation.

Especially when it no longer stays switched on...!
 
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