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hi

I’m new to self employed domestic (having done my apprenticeship and time in industry with a utility supplier) so looking for a little guidance on the below.....

Got asked to look at an Rcbo tripping issue. Called in for an initial look. Nothing seemed obviously wrong so as to cause the tripping. What I did spot though was a fairly new d/b that had obviously been moved, no sign of test (stickers etc...) all wiring in new colours where suspect ring arrived upstairs in old colours !! So clearly some joints along the way.

Upstairs the ring was terminated in a jb then spurred off in new colours to a double socket then spurred again off the spur to another double socket.

I couldn’t knock the dB off for proper test but I did ir test from jb out along spur to sockets which found nothing.

I was meant to be going back after shop hours so I could isolate dB and have a proper look inside (board was rammed full so I declined to investigate inside whilst live)

I’ve had a message in meantime saying its all sorted. I asked what was found and they weren’t too sure but thought it was a cable that had been put into one of the sockets I tested shorting on something.

I’m gutted I missed this cable on inspection but would’ve thought the ir test would pick the short up?

My question, however, is this.....

The spark who went in after me has obviously ignored the spur on spur and just fixed the issue? I thought that any circuit we were working on needed to be shown to meet regs? Am I wrong? Should I just be fixing what’s in front of me?

Glad of any advice
 
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Pete999

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Arms
Esteemed
hi

I’m new to self employed domestic (having done my apprenticeship and time in industry with a utility supplier) so looking for a little guidance on the below.....

Got asked to look at an Rcbo tripping issue. Called in for an initial look. Nothing seemed obviously wrong so as to cause the tripping. What I did spot though was a fairly new d/b that had obviously been moved, no sign of test (stickers etc...) all wiring in new colours where suspect ring arrived upstairs in old colours !! So clearly some joints along the way.

Upstairs the ring was terminated in a jb then spurred off in new colours to a double socket then spurred again off the spur to another double socket.

I couldn’t knock the dB off for proper test but I did ir test from jb out along spur to sockets which found nothing.

I was meant to be going back after shop hours so I could isolate dB and have a proper look inside (board was rammed full so I declined to investigate inside whilst live)

I’ve had a message in meantime saying its all sorted. I asked what was found and they weren’t too sure but thought it was a cable that had been put into one of the sockets I tested shorting on something.

I’m gutted I missed this cable on inspection but would’ve thought the ir test would pick the short up?

My question, however, is this.....

The spark who went in after me has obviously ignored the spur on spur and just fixed the issue? I thought that any circuit we were working on needed to be shown to meet regs? Am I wrong? Should I just be fixing what’s in front of me?

Glad of any advice
You could suggest to your client that in order to ensure the installation is in a safe condition, that an EICR would be the prudent way forward, was there any paperwork left by the Electrician who installed the "fairly new board"?
 

telectrix

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Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
that looks like a job to swerve away from, bodges done by another, you get involved, your name on the the court list when it goes tits up.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Thanks both.

Those were my thoughts too. I think an EICR is in order to at least make sure everything is as it should be.

There was no paperwork with the current occupiers (a tenant in a high street shop) but could've been with the landlord. I did suggest that they speak with their landlord who may be able to contact the person who did the board move/renewal.

I'm getting the idea, though, that most people aren't bothered if their bonding is sufficient, or if there is a spur on a spur, they just want their immediate problem fixed. And there seems to be people who will oblige this.

which leads me onto another question.... would you complete a minor works to show tests completed if you were making small repairs such as re-terminating or basic accessory replacement? And would you still do that repair work if there was danger, such as metal accessories on a 'pre-earth requirement' lighting circuit?

again, thanks for any thoughts and opinions
 

Pete999

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Arms
Esteemed
Thanks both.

Those were my thoughts too. I think an EICR is in order to at least make sure everything is as it should be.

There was no paperwork with the current occupiers (a tenant in a high street shop) but could've been with the landlord. I did suggest that they speak with their landlord who may be able to contact the person who did the board move/renewal.

I'm getting the idea, though, that most people aren't bothered if their bonding is sufficient, or if there is a spur on a spur, they just want their immediate problem fixed. And there seems to be people who will oblige this.

which leads me onto another question.... would you complete a minor works to show tests completed if you were making small repairs such as re-terminating or basic accessory replacement? And would you still do that repair work if there was danger, such as metal accessories on a 'pre-earth requirement' lighting circuit?

again, thanks for any thoughts and opinions
No an eicr cert is what you want to complete.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Thanks Pete.

Just to clarify though do you mean an EICR in this specific circumstance or an EICR following minor repairs?

Thanks
Nick
 
An EICR is for a complete inspection/test not for repair works etc.. A Minor Works can be used for minor repairs, any work you carry out must have certain levels of protection to ensure ADS and maybe additional rcd protection is provided.
 

Pete999

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Arms
Esteemed
Thanks Pete.

Just to clarify though do you mean an EICR in this specific circumstance or an EICR following minor repairs?

Thanks
Nick
For minor repairs then a MNWC, but how can you repair faults if you haven't tested the installation? do the EICR hand it to the client with your recommendations for any repairs.
Your job is done up to the client to either do nothing, or employ you or another electrician to do the repairs, in my opinion it would be rather silly if the client were to employ someone else, as you have first hand knowledge of any repairs/alterations that are needed.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
An EICR is for a complete inspection/test not for repair works etc.. A Minor Works can be used for minor repairs, any work you carry out must have certain levels of protection to ensure ADS and maybe additional rcd protection is provided.
Thanks, that was my understanding of it.

What would your approach be in the situations I described above, do you fix the problem and note the faults on the minor works, decline the work until an EICR is completed to reveal the whole truth or another option?

Thanks
Nick
 

Pete999

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Arms
Esteemed
For minor repairs then a MNWC, but how can you repair faults if you haven't tested the installation? do the EICR hand it to the client with your recommendations for any repairs.
Your job is done up to the client to either do nothing, or employ you or another electrician to do the repairs, in my opinion it would be rather silly if the client were to employ someone else, as you have first hand knowledge of any repairs/alterations that are needed.
You need to be honest and not manufacture faults, doing that may come back and bite you in your rear end, if you do the EICR then it would be advantageous to both you and the client to agree prior to beginning the tests, to rectify any small faults that are easy to fix, loose connections etc.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
For minor repairs then a MNWC, but how can you repair faults if you haven't tested the installation? do the EICR hand it to the client with your recommendations for any repairs.
Your job is done up to the client to either do nothing, or employ you or another electrician to do the repairs, in my opinion it would be rather silly if the client were to employ someone else, as you have first hand knowledge of any repairs/alterations that are needed.
Thanks Pete,

That was pretty much how I handled it, only without completing the full eicr at the point I got to. I fedback my initial findings and advised i'd need to do further tests and then make recommendations for improvements to the circuit before moving forward. Obviously all they wanted was for their rcbo to strop tripping. Not a lot of care for anything else i was pointing out.
 
D

Deleted member 26818

You only do what you are asked to do.
If you see a problem, you’re obliged to inform your customer.
Fix it if you want, but without an instruction to do so, there’s no guarantee you’ll be paid.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
I agree wholeheartedly with the need for the tests etc... and am a big advocate of not attaching myself to things that could come back and bit my rear end (or name me in court proceedings), part of the reason for me leaving my previous employment (my refusal to turn a blind eye to very dangerous things).

But surely there must be many occasions where we are finding clients turning us away if we are making a list of repairs needed when they have a specific fault they want fixing?
 
If you repair a specific fault then you can use a Minor Works as this is a record of what you have done. There is a section on the Certificate for commenting on the existing installation as to whether it is safe for continued use.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
You only do what you are asked to do.
If you see a problem, you’re obliged to inform your customer.
Fix it if you want, but without an instruction to do so, there’s no guarantee you’ll be paid.
But what if they don't want the other issue, that you have informed them about, only the one they've asked you to do, but the other issue you find is dangerous? do you press on and fix what they asked you to, leaving the circuit with a dangerous fault, or do you decline to continue? Is our obligation only to inform or do we have an obligation to leave a circuit safe?

A genuine question there, not an attempt at arguing with you. I'm struggling to find where to position myself with this. My background is predominantly industry and my stance was always that everything needed to be by the book, RAMS in place etc... but i found that this was quite an unpopular approach

thanks
nick
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
If you repair a specific fault then you can use a Minor Works as this is a record of what you have done. There is a section on the Certificate for commenting on the existing installation as to whether it is safe for continued use.
Would this still be the case if something like the main earth bonding was missing? (Again, genuine question there, not a veiled attempt at an argument)

Appreciate your advice
Nick
 

Pete999

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Arms
Esteemed
Thanks Pete,

That was pretty much how I handled it, only without completing the full eicr at the point I got to. I fedback my initial findings and advised i'd need to do further tests and then make recommendations for improvements to the circuit before moving forward. Obviously all they wanted was for their rcbo to strop tripping. Not a lot of care for anything else i was pointing out.
Agree with Spins post following this one, unfortunately what you describe is the way of the World, "don't want to know about all that carp" just fix what I asked for, head buried in the sand springs to mind, but as Spin says it's your duty of care to explain in writing of any problems you find, copy to client copy for you, CYA I think it's called.
 

rolyberkin

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Arms
Esteemed
In the real world if you told every customer to have a full EICR every time you go to look at a fault you will not be getting much work! I tend to concentrate on the fault as reported, if I see anything along the way I bring it to their attention there and then, note it on the MWC and or issue a danger notice if required.
 

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