Discuss Safety precautions when working on a roof in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

S

starcott

Can anyone please tell me the basic safety requirements which must be provided by an installer, before a roofer begins work?

Is there anywhere on the MCS site where the regulations on this matter are written, or is it down to health and safety guide lines?

What would be the penalty for an installer not carrying out such requirements?

John
 
I would expect to see the installer creating a drop zone around the scaff, advising you not to walk into the drop zone, do not climb the scaffold, and keep your children in-doors or away whilst men are working at height etc. Its a HSE requirement rather than MCS. Everysite is different
 
Depends on the site location, we would normally scaffold up to gutter level, but have used a tower on the odd occasion. Some insurance policys stipulate scaffold. Its all down to the company and what the site survey found, type or roof etc.
 
You could ask the installer for his site specific risk assessment and method statement for the work he is doing
 
It's a very individual thing and not written in stone. You are expected to do a risk assessment for each site and have a generic H&S policy. There are guidelines for working at height, but they are just that, guidelines. we use a tower for single story, scaffold for anything higher. we use harnesses if we are working to the roof edge (but not if we are above the scaffold because the harness can become a hazard in it's own right). Some installers insist on flourescent jackets which I think is nonsence, whats going to run over you on a scaffold!!! (confirmed on my last job where the customer was a health and safety inspector!) We wear helmets if guys are working at ground level and height because of the risk of stuff falling off the scaffold (even with kick boards) and in fairness falling objects is probably your biggest risk. Then you get into all the stuff about using power tools, hearing and eye protection, gloves etc etc.

we sometimes use an edge scaffold if he panels are going close to the roof edge.

health and safety policy isn't prescriptive, your supposed to use common sense about it and individualise it to the circumstances
 
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It's a very individual thing and not written in stone. You are expected to do a risk assessment for each site and have a generic H&S policy. There are guidelines for working at height, but they are just that, guidelines.

Not according to this document http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf.

we use a tower for single story, scaffold for anything higher. we use harnesses if we are working to the roof edge (but not if we are above the scaffold because the harness can become a hazard in it's own right).

While I agree that the incorrect use of harnesses can be a hazard so can a lack of roof training. The biggest risk in a fall arrest situation is suspension trauma for more info see TAG's Technical Library - Suspension Trauma

With regard to the use of fall protection equipment it must be regularly inspected and documented as required within PUWER and/or LOLER regulations depending on it's exact use. All lifting equipment should be maintained in accordance with LOLER regs

Some installers insist on flourescent jackets which I think is nonsence, whats going to run over you on a scaffold!!! (confirmed on my last job where the customer was a health and safety inspector!) We wear helmets if guys are working at ground level and height because of the risk of stuff falling off the scaffold (even with kick boards) and in fairness falling objects is probably your biggest risk. Then you get into all the stuff about using power tools, hearing and eye protection, gloves etc etc.

we sometimes use an edge scaffold if he panels are going close to the roof edge.

The wearing of fluorescent jackets may be to do with access to and egress from the scaffold and may also just be a standard generic requirement

With helmets how many actually check they are within the serviceable date and undamaged and that any stickers attached to it will not damage the material or structure of it

health and safety policy isn't prescriptive, your supposed to use common sense about it and individualise it to the circumstances

While you may say it isn't prescriptive ther are more than enough regulations covering it

Most risk assessments and safety method statements can be twisted and interpreted to suit the situation. I know that as I have done it on many occasions

Over the years I have seen many badly written risk documents many believe that having got IOSH or NEBOSH quals they can write risk documents for any type of work without any experience or qualification for the work to be done

I thought using common sense was something that is not to common these days in the way some regulations are written
 
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yes, but it isn't written in stone. Those regulalations are vague and generalised. you are expected to interpret them to individual scenarios. they are not prescriptive in that they don't say 'you must use a ladder for this, you must use a step ladder for that', you must wear a helmet for this and a flourescent jacket for that.

your comment on flourescent jackets is exactly my point, by making a standard generic requirement you stop people from assessing risk and thinking for themselves. I expect my guys to look at the guidelines, look at the risk assessments and act accordingly, adapting to the scenarios as they need.

Fall arrest systems are, in my view, unsuitable for our type of work as the still allow a fall of such height that you will hit the scaffold on the way down. On occassions when we have needed a longer line to move freeley about the roof we have used climbing rope and a man on a belay line. Otherwise if a harness is needed it's attached to a short strop or rope to allow movement but to minimise the actual fall distance. A 3-5 meter arrest system is completely inappropriate to our work.

the risk of suspension trauma is relieved if, as you should have as part of your risk assessment, you have a clearly thought out rescue plan in the event of an incident. Thanks for the link. It's a useful teaching aid for the guys as to what to do if they do find themselves hanging in the air!

everyone will always have their own interpretation of the regs and one thing that annoys the cxxx out of me is when some office wallah writes a set of H&S policies that the guys are expected to ridgidly stick to when that person probably has no idea on what is involved in the job (drivers being suspended for refusing to drive high siders in the recent strong winds was a good example).
I firmly believe that a prescriptive and dictatorial health & safety policy restricts common sense and peoples ability to assess risk for themselves and as such actually increases the risk rather than reducing it. The health and safety policy should provide a framework for the guys to be able properly assess and mitigate risk.

regretably your comment on common sense is all too true, and thats because of the prescriptive way we seem to be expected to live these days.

As I say to my wife when our boy is climbing trees, well, if he falls off he'll only do it once! or should I make him wear a hard hat, harness, gloves and face protection?
 
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yes, but it isn't written in stone. Those regulalations are vague and generalised. you are expected to interpret them to individual scenarios. they are not prescriptive in that they don't say 'you must use a ladder for this, you must use a step ladder for that', you must wear a helmet for this and a flourescent jacket for that.

Unfortunately the HSE will not set things in stone due to the litigious nature of society as they are the ones who will put you in the dock when things go wrong and they don't want to be implicated in any case they bring

your comment on flourescent jackets is exactly my point, by making a standard generic requirement you stop people from assessing risk and thinking for themselves. I expect my guys to look at the guidelines, look at the risk assessments and act accordingly, adapting to the scenarios as they need.

A site specific risk assessment should be appended to the generic documentation and everybody should be aware of any site specific requirements prior to work commencing. Some sites require the signing of the toolbox talk sheet to confirm that all trades involved are appropriately briefed

Fall arrest systems are, in my view, unsuitable for our type of work as the still allow a fall of such height that you will hit the scaffold on the way down. On occassions when we have needed a longer line to move freeley about the roof we have used climbing rope and a man on a belay line. Otherwise if a harness is needed it's attached to a short strop or rope to allow movement but to minimise the actual fall distance. A 3-5 meter arrest system is completely inappropriate to our work.

I cannot understand how you can totally dismiss the use of fall arrest systems as unsuitable for your type of work, from your comment I don't believe you have fully investigated what safety equipment is available

The vague regulations you refer to require that the maximum fall distance is limited to 2 metres and the maximum arrest load on the body is limited to 600Kg

the risk of suspension trauma is relieved if, as you should have as part of your risk assessment, you have a clearly thought out rescue plan in the event of an incident. Thanks for the link. It's a useful teaching aid for the guys as to what to do if they do find themselves hanging in the air!

I only used that link as an example, if you google "suspension trauma" there are many more documents on the subject

everyone will always have their own interpretation of the regs and one thing that annoys the cxxx out of me is when some office wallah writes a set of H&S policies that the guys are expected to ridgidly stick to when that person probably has no idea on what is involved in the job (drivers being suspended for refusing to drive high siders in the recent strong winds was a good example).

As I mentioned previously about H&S quals and no knowledge of the job, I took a guy out to site many years ago who decided that all the SMS's and RA's must be written by someone who as a minimum had an IOSH qual when my lads where kitting up to climb he then came to the conclusion he was not qualified for the work to be undertaken and amended his requirements

I firmly believe that a prescriptive and dictatorial health & safety policy restricts common sense and peoples ability to assess risk for themselves and as such actually increases the risk rather than reducing it. The health and safety policy should provide a framework for the guys to be able properly assess and mitigate risk.

Along with many you don't appear to understand the correct method to produce a risk assessment. You must identify the hazards then assess the risk associated with the hazards and finally identify what control measures can be used to reduce and mitigate the risk. While it would be nice to use dynamic risk assessments unfortunately they cannot be produced in a court of law if something goes pear shaped


regretably your comment on common sense is all too true, and thats because of the prescriptive way we seem to be expected to live these days.

As I say to my wife when our boy is climbing trees, well, if he falls off he'll only do it once! or should I make him wear a hard hat, harness, gloves and face protection?

While the nanny state rules then the way we run our life will be dictated by others

The problem you have is if your boy does fall is the social workers will be after you but I'm with you that they will never learn if they don't do it
 
Please understand I am not looking for an argument here. You clearly know your stuff and I personally find this an informative and useful discussion to have, even if we have gone off topic a bit.

When I talk of an arrest system I mean the strap that attaches to my harness and is designed to slow my fall. Unfortunately it requires upto 5m beneith you so by that time you have either hit the ground or the scaffold! appologies if my terminology is incorrect. If you know of a more suitable system for this type of work then do share, it would be of use to us all. If the maximum fall distance is 2m then how does my lanyard qualify as suitable. also if you are up a 3m long roof 5 m from the ground with your arrest system fixed to the scaffold, as it's the only suitable structure, how would you manage with a 2m length of strap?
My risk assessments are done pretty much along the lines you suggest and use the red amber green system, but I hope they leave room for people to use their noggin a bit (and not just as a fall arrest!!!)
Ultimately what it all comes down to is can you stand up in court and justify your actions, if you can your in the clear, if you can't, your in something sticky and not so clear!
 
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and while Moggy and Ung continue their informed debate, realistically how does the one man band keep on top of this as well as Real, MCS, technology updates, government determined limbo restricting marketing, changing financial situations .... how many of the smaller guys have had the opportunity to keep up to date with the correct H&S during the mayhem of the last 6 weeks?

We scaffold every job and use edge/ridge protection on every job but we don't use harnesses as they cause more problems than they solve. I have seen installers working for national firms carrying panels up ladders 4.5m up to the roof to save on the cost of scaffolding!
 
Please understand I am not looking for an argument here. You clearly know your stuff and I personally find this an informative and useful discussion to have, even if we have gone off topic a bit.

I am just trying to pass on some knowledge and debate the issue in hand I'm sorry if it appears arguemental but I always put forward reasoned comment for my corner in any debate:biggrin:

When I talk of an arrest system I mean the strap that attaches to my harness and is designed to slow my fall. Unfortunately it requires upto 5m beneith you so by that time you have either hit the ground or the scaffold! appologies if my terminology is incorrect. If you know of a more suitable system for this type of work then do share, it would be of use to us all. If the maximum fall distance is 2m then how does my lanyard qualify as suitable. also if you are up a 3m long roof 5 m from the ground with your arrest system fixed to the scaffold, as it's the only suitable structure, how would you manage with a 2m length of strap?
My risk assessments are done pretty much along the lines you suggest and use the red amber green system, but I hope they leave room for people to use their noggin a bit (and not just as a fall arrest!!!)
Ultimately what it all comes down to is can you stand up in court and justify your actions, if you can your in the clear, if you can't, your in something sticky and not so clear!

The fall arrest system is all the parts from the anchor point through to the harness. While I understand the difficulties of providing suitable and possibly temporary anchor points there are a number of factors that have to be considered not least the maximum loads the equipment (carabiners, lanyards harnesses etc) and the person in the harness will stand when in a fall arrest situation, which if I understand your rig correctly you may be exceeding it's limits
It may benefit you to do one of the rooftop access/safety courses that many climbing and safety companies run to get a better understanding of the requirements

and while Moggy and Ung continue their informed debate, realistically how does the one man band keep on top of this as well as Real, MCS, technology updates, government determined limbo restricting marketing, changing financial situations .... how many of the smaller guys have had the opportunity to keep up to date with the correct H&S during the mayhem of the last 6 weeks?

We scaffold every job and use edge/ridge protection on every job but we don't use harnesses as they cause more problems than they solve. I have seen installers working for national firms carrying panels up ladders 4.5m up to the roof to save on the cost of scaffolding!

I'm glad you see it as informed debate
H&S is probably one of the most money hungry areas of any installation business as they say cost is no defence in not providing a safe workplace.

While not wearing harnesses on an edge protected roof there are some H&S guys I've had on site who would ask for harnesses to be used while climbing the ladder to the platform
Let's be honest we all have taken short cuts and not adhered to the RA when nobody is looking it's just some of these companies pay so little the lads on site are forced into it to make a half decent crust
 

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