Shared Nutural

[bigbaddave]

Come on guys.. Who's been caught out by one.. Is it bad practice that it hasn't been picked up proir to changing a board?

 

[Adam W]

Yes it is bad practice not to pick it up before a board change. If left unrectified a borrowed neutral will cause the RCDs to trip unless you put all the lights on the same RCD, which isn't dividing up the circuits properly.
Most customers don't like it when you quote one price for a board change then start throwing in extras like fixing a borrowed neutral.

 

[imago]

Until dual RCDs were used there was no reason for it to show up. It's not unsafe unless anyone working on the circuit is slack with their isolation. It simply saved on work and materials.

Caught out? No, but sometimes sorting them out can be a mission. If it proves too expensive/disruptive for the customer to have it sorted then combining two lighting circuits into one will save the day.

A borrowed neutral seems to have attanied mythical status in recent years, as if it's some dangerous practice which is difficult to sort that will catch out poor unsuspecting electricians and ruin their day. In reality it's just another wiring method which was once quite common.

 

[bigbaddave]

Did a board changeover last week, Did the initial bonding and IR check and even continuity check between conductors on both lighting circuits. Quoted for board and bonding. Only problem was the functional testing and was taken out both RCD'S.. Spoke to customer and given two options. Double up (5 pendants on each circuit) Now 10 or spot of rewiring..

After taking the covers off the switches at top and bottom of stairs ..Double up it was.. But as for the original test, as the switch was not on then it wasnt picled up (Sloppy mistake but a learning curve)

 

[Darkwood]

@Imago ... i contradict your theme and will suggest it is a very dangerous set-up especially in unsuspecting circuits as the correct isolation and testing sequence may not consider a borrowed neutral been off load, then while your working in it the load is switched on (of another circuit) and although you have tested correctly you find yourself in a potentially dangerous situe'.
To pass this off as having a great mythical status is complacent at the very least and full respect and caution should always be given to the possibility of a borrowed neutral been energised during your works (post isolation and testing procedures).

 

[Darkwood]

Come on guys.. Who's been caught out by one.. Is it bad practice that it hasn't been picked up proir to changing a board?

Take this advice as constructive Dave but headlining a thread with such a poor spelling mistake of a word that should be etched into your head from college makes you look unproffesional as well as other spelling errors.
Edit and change to save face if i was you

Nutural - Neutral

 

[bigbaddave]

Im a spark not a English teacher.. My spelling is that terrible that even my smell checker doesn't pick up on my mistakes (See what i did there)

 

[Darkwood]

Im a spark not a English teacher.. My spelling is that terrible that even my smell checker doesn't pick up on my mistakes (See what i did there)

Yes lol... wasn't a dig just advice, i wouldn't put my money in a bank that couldn't spell 'Finance' as you have to question their abilities when they can't do basic English and especially a word that is strongly linked to their proffesion...
In other words on here you'll just get a jibe about it but to a customer it could be what decides if you get the job or not, or the impression you give about your company.

 

[Adam W]

I think it is likely to catch out poor unsuspecting electricians and ruin their day - they go in to change the board and do a bit of testing, then they could end up having to start chasing out walls and lifting floorboards, which can be a right pain if the customer doesn't want it done.
I don't see that it's dangerous, partly because care should be taken on landing light circuits anyway. As mentioned borrowed neutrals used to be something of a standard practice (a pretty poor practice IMO because they can give rise to confusion) and didn't cause many issues before dual RCD boards were introduced. Remember fuses and MCBs generally only disrupt the line conductor and not the neutral.

 

[Adam W]

Take this advice as constructive Dave but headlining a thread with such a poor spelling mistake of a word that should be etched into your head from college makes you look unproffesional as well as other spelling errors.
Edit and change to save face if i was you

Nutural - Neutral

How can you call yourself a 'professional' when you spell it like that? :blush5:

 

[MDJ]

It will catch out electricians at times, but not bob from the pub, he will change the board and not test it, infact there could be 6 lives and 3 neutrals and he won't care, not many sparks will get caught out, as they usually do a test and inspection first then advise the customer on a board change and the borrowed neutral would have been picked up, definately very dangerous IMO.

 

[Darkwood]

Caught red-handed :bomb2:...... we all do it but was with respect to the word neutral a deeply embedded word in our trade

Well spotted or did i put it there on purpose .....No! i won't get away with that one will i lol..

 

[Adam W]

It will catch out electricians at times, but not bob from the pub, he will change the board and not test it, infact there could be 6 lives and 3 neutrals and he won't care, not many sparks will get caught out, as they usually do a test and inspection first then advise the customer on a board change and the borrowed neutral would have been picked up, definately very dangerous IMO.

I reckon 'Bob from the pub' would just do a 'bang test', discover the RCDs keep tripping, turn the lights off so they don't trip while he shows the customer, quickly take the money and run away, then switch his phone off.
"Anyone seen Bob lately?"
"Yeah he's been drinking down the Red Lion the last couple of weeks".

At most, Bob might have put all the lighting circuits together on the non-rcd side, which while not compliant with the current regs doesn't present any immediate danger.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Come on guys.. Who's been caught out by one.. Is it bad practice that it hasn't been picked up proir to changing a board?

well....if you bother to IR test between the neutrals....you should find it...if its there if course...

 

[imago]

@Imago ... i contradict your theme and will suggest it is a very dangerous set-up especially in unsuspecting circuits as the correct isolation and testing sequence may not consider a borrowed neutral been off load, then while your working in it the load is switched on (of another circuit) and although you have tested correctly you find yourself in a potentially dangerous situe'.
To pass this off as having a great mythical status is complacent at the very least and full respect and caution should always be given to the possibility of a borrowed neutral been energised during your works (post isolation and testing procedures).

If it fails to consider switching states then it isn't the correct isolation process. Exactly the same scenario as isolating the downstairs RFC then assuming the outlet you're working on is part of that RFC because it's on the ground floor.

Likewise your second paragraph, if you give "full respect to the possibility of a borrowed neutral" then you should check for voltage after operating the switches.

So I stand by my statement that it's not dangerous, but add the caveat that people who don't know what they're doing working on the circuit are.

 

[bigbaddave]

Yes lol... wasn't a dig just advice, i wouldn't put my money in a bank that couldn't spell 'Finance' as you have to question their abilities when they can't do basic English and especially a word that is strongly linked to their proffesion...
In other words on here you'll just get a jibe about it but to a customer it could be what decides if you get the job or not, or the impression you give about your company.

Thats fine mate, No offence taken.. To be honest its a pain when filling in certs, Where customers want cert there and then to hand over payment i often find my self texting the wife, Or typing the text in my phone. (Trouble is that usually its that bad even the spell checker rejects to give me the correct answer

And yes I agree.. Doesn't look professional, However hasn't caused my to lose a job as a result (Or that im aware of)

 

[Fin170]

Well cable was a lot more expensive back then, that's why it was common place to borrow neutrals, re-use rubber cable that may of been difficult to replace and not bond anything. Probably too busy with all the ample work to worry about such things anyway, lord knows fuel was too expensive to run to the shops and back if you did run out of cable :rofl:

 

[Geordie Spark]

Yes lol... wasn't a dig just advice, i wouldn't put my money in a bank that couldn't spell 'Finance' as you have to question their abilities when they can't do basic English and especially a word that is strongly linked to their proffesion...
In other words on here you'll just get a jibe about it but to a customer it could be what decides if you get the job or not, or the impression you give about your company.

It's profession.

See me after class !! :53:

 

[Darkwood]

Already got detention for it Geordie... was spotted earlier but il take it on the chin and not edit it

 

[decolad69]

Caught red-handed :bomb2:...... we all do it but was with respect to the word neutral a deeply embedded word in our trade

Well spotted or did i put it there on purpose .....No! i won't get away with that one will i lol..

That will be because it's negative !