Should those seeking Fast Track routes into the trade be belittled ?

[SparksWill Fly]

I seems that resentment, ego and selfishness are at play on some construction trade related forums when ever the question of fast track courses pops up. Again on "some" forums, i get a sense of..

"I had to do such and such, so i don't even care if the fast track course was any good anyway. Or even if it's the only option some folk have because i had to go through this certain method, so therefore everybody else should have to, I don't care if my comments put folks off wanting to do well for themselves, even if fast track is their only option, because my own ego and selfishness is more important than their life"

Of course no one would ever admit that the reason they say such and such comment is because they are stroking their ego and are selfish, they will just say that it simply has to do with their concern as to the quality of workmanship that folks have after completing fast track courses. And I'm sure this is true for some, but even for those whos opinion is based solely on the quality of the workmanship of a "fast-tracker" they should still be considerate of the fact that other folks are entitled to become tradesmen just as much as they are, only they don't have the same available options you have/had in order to get there. But certain other users who post on construction forums (i'm not just picking on this forum but any tradesman related forum) I feel, post comments simply with an intent to be negative in a way that mirrors what i explained above with regards to "Resentment" "Ego" "Selfishness"

 

[Electricalserv]

I seems that resentment, ego and selfishness are at play on some construction trade related forums when ever the question of fast track courses pops up. Again on "some" forums, i get a sense of..

"I had to do such and such, so i don't even care if the fast track course was any good anyway. Or even if it's the only option some folk have because i had to go through this certain method, so therefore everybody else should have to, I don't care if my comments put folks off wanting to do well for themselves, even if fast track is their only option, because my own ego and selfishness is more important than their life"

Of course no one would ever admit that the reason they say such and such comment is because they are stroking their ego and are selfish, they will just say that it simply has to do with their concern as to the quality of workmanship that folks have after completing fast track courses. And I'm sure this is true for some, but even for those whos opinion is based solely on the quality of the workmanship of a "fast-tracker" they should still be considerate of the fact that other folks are entitled to become tradesmen just as much as they are, only they don't have the same available options you have/had in order to get there. But certain other users who post on construction forums (i'm not just picking on this forum but any tradesman related forum) I feel, post comments simply with an intent to be negative in a way that mirrors what i explained above with regards to "Resentment" "Ego" "Selfishness"

No mate my problem is that average joe like yourself can just walk into a job that I have got the correct training for in 5 years!and you In six months and take work away from my kids mouths. You are not a tradesman after six months you are a butcher!

 

[SparksWill Fly]

Well i happen to come from a "alternative news" I.E non mainstream brainwashing background, and i can honestly tell you that i understand where you are coming from but trust me, It's not the guy who does a six month course who is making it harder for you, TPTB (The Powers That Be) and i'm talking about those who really run things, not puppet prime ministers. They are the ones responsible for creating this divide and conquer survival of the fittest mentality, and purposely creating a state of depression (recession) call it what you will, which means we all end up directing our anger at each other rather than at them.

But again, and i don't want to get on anyone's nerves that's not my purpose.. But if you take an honest look at my previous post it may show you something about the tone of your reply.

What if those six month fast-trackers also have mouths to feed and doing a fast track course was their only option ?

This life is a lottery, it's about how lucky you are. And you shouldn't be mad at good honest folk (be mad at those who are not that's fine) I'm sure there's folks in Africa and other poor regions of the world that would happily do double what you did and also take half the wage and do longer hours at the end of it. Should they be mad at you because you get to earn a living being an electrician and they don't ?

Of course not, their beef should be with the system and those parasites that knowingly and willingly help to keep things how they are.

 

[Colour Republic]

You've said a couple of times now 'it's their only option' If that truly is the case then why is that? Is it because the trades are already over populated with un-skilled workman setting up then charging peanuts, which drives down the value of the industry and putting the squeeze on established firms who no longer have the funds to take on apprentices and train them up to the required level?

The problem with a lot of fast trackers is that many want to set up their own businesses right from the off, they are poorly informed and didn't do the research in to the current state of the industry. They have been attracted by the big headline figures with which they can earn without spending a moments thought of checking.

I see these types of posts every day...

I hate my office job,
I want to be my own boss,
I've heard I can earn 60k in my first year,
And I can start earning that money in just 4 weeks,

If you can show me a fast tracker that found that to be true then I will show you a liar.


I'm all up for someone trying to better themselves but not at the expense of lowering standards and a fair wage.

 

[Electricalserv]

Well i happen to come from a "alternative news" I.E non mainstream brainwashing background, and i can honestly tell you that i understand where you are coming from but trust me, It's not the guy who does a six month course who is making it harder for you, TPTB (The Powers That Be) and i'm talking about those who really run things, not puppet prime ministers. They are the ones responsible for creating this divide and conquer survival of the fittest mentality, and purposely creating a state of depression (recession) call it what you will, which means we all end up directing our anger at each other rather than at them.

But again, and i don't want to get on anyone's nerves that's not my purpose.. But if you take an honest look at my previous post it may show you something about the tone of your reply.

What if those six month fast-trackers also have mouths to feed and doing a fast track course was their only option ?

This life is a lottery, it's about how lucky you are. And you shouldn't be mad at good honest folk (be mad at those who are not that's fine) I'm sure there's folks in Africa and other poor regions of the world that would happily do double what you did and also take half the wage and do longer hours at the end of it. Should they be mad at you because you get to earn a living being an electrician and they don't ?

Of course not, their beef should be with the system and those parasites that knowingly and willingly help to keep things how they are.

Yes I am angry at the system...but you can not deny that thee fast trackers are NOT competent electricians. We have had many a customers come on here with someone saying they are a legit spark and totally bamboozeling us with thee shody workmanship. Someone who passes out after 6 months is nothing but a trainee and the sooner it stops the better. The likes of the NICEIC, NAPIT & ELECSA are the problem. They are letting non qualified people on the schemes. With absolutely f-all experience or quals. This is what is known as the domestic installer and defined scope users.

I say again they are not electricians, they are butchers.

 

[Apollo]

Yes I am angry at the system...but you can not deny that thee fast trackers are NOT competent electricians. We have had many a customers come on here with someone saying they are a legit spark and totally bamboozeling us with thee shody workmanship. Someone who passes out after 6 months is nothing but a trainee and the sooner it stops the better. The likes of the NICEIC, NAPIT & ELECSA are the problem. They are letting non qualified people on the schemes. With absolutely f-all experience or quals. This is what is known as the domestic installer and defined scope users.

I say again they are not electricians, they are butchers.

Define competent and then define qualified electrician - you'll get plenty of different answers I'm sure. The one thing your wrong on is the sentence about NICEIC & others letting non qualified sparks join schemes... Are they really????

Personally as a 20+ year sparky I welcome everyone who joins the trade and know how hard people have to work to get these quals, whether it be 6 weeks 6 months or 3 years, the only defining difference is experience, and you don't get that without being on the job...

So should these people coming into the trade be guided and nurtured (the one's that want it) to becoming experienced sparkys or should we just sit behind our computers and ridicule them. I'm for the first option.

The biggest problem we face today is over stauration of the workforce. Its high time people stopped blaming everyone else for their downfalls and make yourself more employable. Just saying evey one's undercutting me is not really a good excuse trust me if you had the chance most would do it.....

I understand where the OP is coming from as at the moment i'm studying for my basic plumbing course, because I mentioned this I was ridiculed but what the poster didn't know was that I had been doing plumbing for the last 10 years (by his own admission I'd been in the game longer than he had) along side my sparky work and am (even if I do say so myself) a very good plumber I know my limitations. Reason to complicated as to why Im doing the quals now but just to suffice, replying to posts you don't really know the full story to, so saying someone has no experience and no clue could be so far off the mark, its ridiculous.

Everyone make their own mark on the world its up to you how big that mark is. Not the blame game. after all its just business...

 

[Apollo]

@ Eletricalserv,

Seeing as how your inbox is full I thought i'd responde to your pm here!

Open forum's contain peoples opinion, its not for anyone to tell someone else their opinion is invalid or wrong, last time I checked the UK still had the right to free speech!!!!

Firstly, I never said I was a plumber as such and was using it as an example as people who post and respond never knowing the full story....

Your response justifies my earlier post your asuming i have no quals and so calling me for so called "cheating" the system. i'm fully qualified!!

I got my sparky quals via an apprenticeship in 87. got all relevant quals I need. Not that i have to justify myself to anyone!! if you had read my post correctly I said I've been a sparky for 20+ years. Part P wasn't around then.....

At the end of the day thats my opinion I'm entitled to it... I've realised sparkying isn't what it used to be and so i'm diversifing and expanding my capabilities. Instead of sitting and moaning about all the newcommers to the trade... If everyone had to go through the same rigours to get "x" qualifications we'd all be robots, it's not quite that time yet!!!

I understand you though but you can't let it affect you. I'll asume your well qualified and been in the game long enough, ride the wave and know that your around to pick up the pieces of the cowboys, Believe me its not just the short courses that are the problem its some old timers too that think they know it alland dont keep relevant.

 

[Electricalserv]

@ Eletricalserv,

Seeing as how your inbox is full I thought i'd responde to your pm here!

Open forum's contain peoples opinion, its not for anyone to tell someone else their opinion is invalid or wrong, last time I checked the UK still had the right to free speech!!!!

Firstly, I never said I was a plumber as such and was using it as an example as people who post and respond never knowing the full story....

Your response justifies my earlier post your asuming i have no quals and so calling me for so called "cheating" the system. i'm fully qualified!!

I got my sparky quals via an apprenticeship in 87. got all relevant quals I need. Not that i have to justify myself to anyone!! if you had read my post correctly I said I've been a sparky for 20+ years. Part P wasn't around then.....

At the end of the day thats my opinion I'm entitled to it... I've realised sparkying isn't what it used to be and so i'm diversifing and expanding my capabilities. Instead of sitting and moaning about all the newcommers to the trade... If everyone had to go through the same rigours to get "x" qualifications we'd all be robots, it's not quite that time yet!!!

I understand you though but you can't let it affect you. I'll asume your well qualified and been in the game long enough, ride the wave and know that your around to pick up the pieces of the cowboys, Believe me its not just the short courses that are the problem its some old timers too that think they know it alland dont keep relevant.

I'm not here to debate against qualified sparks.

My main argument against this thread is that it is wrong that it is so easy to jump out of bed one morning and say I'm going to be an electrician and bingo 4 weeks down the line you are calling yourself an electrician.

We all know there is alot to learn. Now for someone to do that and exclaim to the whole world they can do my job just aswell because they have the right ticket (NICEIC, NAPIT etc) is just wrong. Without your technical certs I just don't believe in it.

The system is wrong. The niceic, napit and elecsa don't give a damn who is doing the work aslong as its going through them!!!! its all about this ££££££££££££.

I love napits one; the differents between defined scope and full scope is that defined scope only relates to part p...whereas full scope relates to other sectors commercial and industrial!!!! LOL You don't need to be registered with anyone to do commercial or industrial its a bloody scam. BS7671, 2391 and a level 3 qualification should be minimum. full stop!!!!

The market is getting flooded with domestic installers....absolutely flooded with them. This puts real tradesman out of business.

Am I wrong in this????

 

[Welchyboy]

well i have a true story what happened to one of my best mates who was fed up with his job and
wanted a career change

he signed up for a 'become a plasterer in a week course' in which you build a stud wall with a corner then skim it, they talked him right up on the course telling him he could soon start his own business and earn ££££ etc

he finished the course, passed, (no one ever fails), bought a cheap van and put some ads in the local paper, first job he got was an empty house being refurbished,he had to skim and repair a few walls and ceilings.so he went out and bought the plaster and bonding etc got out his shiny new trawel and made a start

anyway long story short after 3 days of work he made such a balls up of this job he sent the bloke a text and said he aint coming back he can keep the money and the plaster he bought and he legged it, sold his van and hes now back in his old job.

Just to add my opinion to why time served tradesmen get irritated by 5 day wonder merchants;

when i finished my apprenticeship i still felt as green as grass and for me that was just the beginning, and i was working with PROPER sparks full time guiding me throughout my training,
and i am 31 now and am still learning new things everyday.

forgive me 'sparks will fly' if i cant get my head around the fact that in 6 weeks or whatever training you call yourself an electrician and then consider other sparks as full of resentment, ego and selfishness when they see first hand the problems that these courses can create.

its just big business for the course companies to sucker people in who hate their current job at the cost of trained electricians and the home owners who are unlucky enough to employ them!

 

[morph]

well i could argue the case on either side really, its funny because i was just thinking about this the other day. i used to say 5 day wonders were crap etc. how can you do the 2330 or whatever it is now ( dumbed down version of 236 ;-) in 10 weeks) . then i did some basic maths
i did 3 years at college 2 years doing the part 1 , well i could have done it in one year it was so easy and the 2 nd year was pretty much the same as year one.
so i could easily do it in one year , one year is 39 weeks , 39 x 6 = 234 hours
10 week course 6 hours per day x 5 x 10 = 300 hours
uhm so it is possible to do it in 10 weeks, probably better.
when i left college i was as green as they come so whats the difference
just a thought

 

[Electricalserv]

well i could argue the case on either side really, its funny because i was just thinking about this the other day. i used to say 5 day wonders were crap etc. how can you do the 2330 or whatever it is now ( dumbed down version of 236 ;-) in 10 weeks) . then i did some basic maths
i did 3 years at college 2 years doing the part 1 , well i could have done it in one year it was so easy and the 2 nd year was pretty much the same as year one.
so i could easily do it in one year , one year is 39 weeks , 39 x 6 = 234 hours
10 week course 6 hours per day x 5 x 10 = 300 hours
uhm so it is possible to do it in 10 weeks, probably better.
when i left college i was as green as they come so whats the difference
just a thought

Because the day release from college comes with a years experience on site.......

No site experience and your training on someones property. Simple really.

Also, forget the 10 week course you mention. You can do a domestic installers course in a week and be allowed to join NICEIC, NAPIT, ELECSA....

So one week and you're a spark?

 

[morph]

i think the courses are
5 days part p
4 days 2382
4 days 2392
i doubt if many of them actually stay working for more than a few months as i would think they realise they dont know what to do ,
our industry has changed dramaticaly its true
its not about to change though so we have to deal with it , and repair the cock ups , so repairs are on the up ;-)

 

[mattmoo1974]

If you mention you ve done the 4 week scourse on here, You ll get 10 answers and 1 of those will answer the question you asked lol.
Sadly iv noticed 50% of people will help you and the other 50% will moan about you course.
Moan all they want there not going to change things, As some 1 has mentioned move with the times, Moaning on here isnt going to change things.
Part Pee limited scope ppl cant put in new circuits. Yes they under cut you. As the saying goes "pay peanuts you get monkeys"
As for people say they cant do a good job on a 4 week course what a load of BS. You ve got enough books to tell you how to do it OSG regs etc etc.
They tell you all the zones how deep to put cables,MCB rcd sizes times the lot etc etc.
If some one chooses not to do it that way thats down to them not the course they took.
Im not sticking up for these courses in any way, But if you cant get into the trade any other way thats what you do.
There are honest people doing these courses and barry the bodger.
I think to many people tranish every 1 with the same brush on the short course front.

 

[RWJ]

If you mention you ve done the 4 week scourse on here, You ll get 10 answers and 1 of those will answer the question you asked lol.
Sadly iv noticed 50% of people will help you and the other 50% will moan about you course.
Moan all they want there not going to change things, As some 1 has mentioned move with the times, Moaning on here isnt going to change things.
Part Pee limited scope ppl cant put in new circuits. Yes they under cut you. As the saying goes "pay peanuts you get monkeys"
As for people say they cant do a good job on a 4 week course what a load of BS. You ve got enough books to tell you how to do it OSG regs etc etc.
They tell you all the zones how deep to put cables,MCB rcd sizes times the lot etc etc.
If some one chooses not to do it that way thats down to them not the course they took.
Im not sticking up for these courses in any way, But if you cant get into the trade any other way thats what you do.
There are honest people doing these courses and barry the bodger.
I think to many people tranish every 1 with the same brush on the short course front.

The majority of the time it's down to the ridiculous.... No sorry Scary questions some of these 5 day guys ask. Can I run 1mm lighting circuit off the spare 50a breaker!!! We've done that one.
Just checking if the fuse needs to be on the red or the black cable.... We've had that one... (Least they weren't trying to fuse the cpc!!)

It's also due to that amount of jobs we're getting called to that members of the public have paid good cash for and are down right dangerous, but they are DI registered.... So that's ok then!!!

 

[V]

wow, now this is a good debate ! like my stepdad said "it will all come out in the wash"

 

[RWJ]

wow, now this is a good debate ! like my stepdad said "it will all come out in the wash"

I'm sure there is competent 5 day guys out there..... but we never see their work!! We only pick up the pieces

 

[bugsy]

I seems that resentment, ego and selfishness are at play on some construction trade related forums when ever the question of fast track courses pops up. Again on "some" forums, i get a sense of..

"I had to do such and such, so i don't even care if the fast track course was any good anyway. Or even if it's the only option some folk have because i had to go through this certain method, so therefore everybody else should have to, I don't care if my comments put folks off wanting to do well for themselves, even if fast track is their only option, because my own ego and selfishness is more important than their life"

Of course no one would ever admit that the reason they say such and such comment is because they are stroking their ego and are selfish, they will just say that it simply has to do with their concern as to the quality of workmanship that folks have after completing fast track courses. And I'm sure this is true for some, but even for those whos opinion is based solely on the quality of the workmanship of a "fast-tracker" they should still be considerate of the fact that other folks are entitled to become tradesmen just as much as they are, only they don't have the same available options you have/had in order to get there. But certain other users who post on construction forums (i'm not just picking on this forum but any tradesman related forum) I feel, post comments simply with an intent to be negative in a way that mirrors what i explained above with regards to "Resentment" "Ego" "Selfishness"

What are you on about, of course people get p'd off , spend 4 years doing an apprenticeship, get given all shty jobs, get treated like dirt , finally get your papers and tell yourself it was all worthwhile , then all of a sudden you can do all this fast track -- well let me tell you something smart ase when you done a proper apprenticeship at the end of your time your competant in tray , conduit, all swa's, micc fp, have a good knoledge of testing, and would have learnt a good few tricks of the trade!

 

[mattmoo1974]

I think the issue here is all the full blown sparks getting P****Y cos people are under cutting them on house bashing.
I cant see a 4 weeker playing around with 3 phase etc etc.

 

[RWJ]

I think the issue here is all the full blown sparks getting P****Y cos people are under cutting them on house bashing.
I cant see a 4 weeker playing around with 3 phase etc etc.

They do..... I've picked up the pieces.... Luckily no one was killed and the firm only lost a days work while we and the DNO sorted it out

 

[Electricalserv]

I think the issue here is all the full blown sparks getting P****Y cos people are under cutting them on house bashing.
I cant see a 4 weeker playing around with 3 phase etc etc.

Yeh you are right