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dan the cable

Hi guys, first post so apologies if its in the wrong section or just plain daft!!

Im a 32 year old guy and have been doing electrical work since leaving school at 16 and serving a 4 year apprentaship... I've done it all at some point including domestic/commercial/testing/fault finding - even my own faults!:coolgleamA:

Anyway, I'm seriously considering moving into the solar market with particular interest in the PV feild... Before I invest significant sums of money in developing my own skills, MCS accreditation and marketing would anyone be good enough to tell me the worts n all details of the solar industry...whats the money like?? is it a bubble market soon to burst...has the government kicked it well in the ghoolies with regard the FIT scheme etc etc etc!!!

Thanks in advance for you advice
Regards
Dan
 
So you think as an industry I should stay clear of it?? I thought (perhaps naievly) it was a boom industry??

Correct me if im wrong

I made some enquiries into the materials cost of a 2.5kw installation. I got feedback indicating the parts can be purchased for approx 4.5k to 6.5k depending on brand. I know scaffold costs and notification costs etc come in but where i am in London im hearing that install costs are approx 12-13k and take a day or two to do...On the face of it there seems to be some serious proffit. Or have I got this completely wrong!!!

Regards
Dan
 
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There was very good profit margins in it until March 3rd, hence why so many electricians started doing it. It can be done in a day but I would suggest quality could be compromised that quick. Any knowledgeable consumers will not pay £12-13k for a 2.5kw system now, or even just before march 3rd for that matter.

I personally wouldn't pay more than £6k for a 2.5kw system now.

There is still some money in it but not much if you want to entice customers at the moment.
 
When there are thirty thousand people struggling to make a living I would say invest your money somewhere else...

im getting quite a negative vibe for the solar market..!!!

So if you could do it again would you? Or would you stick to regular electrical work?
 
Very glad and proud to have been apart of it !
Just looking at going back into it again , but would definitely not be doing it if we had not already been in it .
 
I'm an observer rather than in the industry but my observations are that

i) thanks to the Government's FIT fiasco, anyone who last Sept/Oct were considering installing solar will either now have done so in the Nov/Dec rush or Feb/Mar mini rush or abandoned it entirely. So rather than a steady stream of installations which a well thought out FIT strategy would have produced, we are now in a slow patch following a massive spike in installations. Any new business will find it very hard to find customers at the moment. This may pick up over time, particularly as people move house, buy their first home, find themselves with additional disposable income, electricity bills increase etc.
ii) although the market might recover, the proposed reductions in FIT for July and Sept, will price many customers out of the market - at the 43p rate, it was possible to cover the cost with a loan or extension on a mortgage and the income/saving could comfortably cover the repayments. However, the payback period if DECC presses ahead with is proposals will pretty much price it to those customers who have £10K in cash which they don't expect to need in the next ten years (i.e. solar will increasingly be a toy of the rich).
iii) the EPC requirements add an additional level of complexity and expense, which will rule out a significant number of potential customers. Ironically, it rules out those whose only option in improving their house's energy efficient is to add a renewable energy source. The additional hassle for those who would qualify may put potential customers off, and at the moment it isn't clear what overhead costs the EPC process will add to a typical solar installer's running costs (do you charge for the EPC, which will probably lose you the sale, or do you do it for free which will cost you at least in time with no guarantee of a sale to recover the costs afterwards)
iv) finally you are somewhat out on thinking that a typical 2.5Kw would have a price tag of 12K! That might have been a typical price in April 2011, but take a look at some of the price comparison sites such as compare my solar and you'll see that 6-8K is more typical.

Overall, the margins are quite low at moment, the particularly for the small installer who can't demand the same bulk discounts that the nationals can, and the market, at least for the immediate future, is quite weak.
 
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I agree with the comments, above, made by 'mdovey'. In short, unfortunately, PV has been a victim of its own success.

Some additional factors to consider are:

a) I suspect that the large amounts of speculative 'city money' in the form of 'free solar' offers hasn't done the market any good - the recent reduction in FIT for such arrangements can only improve that situation. Don't get me wrong, I can see a place for such arrangements, I simply feel that they need to be managed in an appropriate way and the new lower rate for multiple owned installations, on the one hand, leaves lattitude for smaller installers to be creative but, on the other hand, will reduce the attractiveness of such arrangments to spivs.

b) The government's incessent fiddling with the FIT scheme creates on-going confusion and concern among the general public, which simply puts folks off - the industry desperately needs a period of stability to recover from the past six months of turmoil.

c) The media is only ever interested in the negative aspects of any story - see all the 'FIT SLASHED BY 50%!' stories in the news with hardly a reference to the reduced cost of installing a system and often making reference to long obsolete pricing when the cost of a system is required.

d) The market has also experienced a large in-rush of installation companies over the last year and following the FIT catastrophy and its resultant sag in demand, there are now too many, as whitnessed by some giving up and going away to do something else. I foresee a future for solar but it's going to be something between the niche it was three years ago and the chaotic mess of recent.

I'd think very hard before investing time and money in this market at the moment.
 
Hi Dan , we decided not renew our mcs which by a stroke of luck ran out at the beginning of December last year !
As there was no way of actually telling what the hell the fits would end up like i personally felt it was wrong to sell it to our clients , i know it was a case of if you tell them the scenarios and it is up to them , but it still felt unethical to continue at the time .
We have since turned a large amount of work away ( all generated purely by word of mouth from a relatively close knit sector of part of our client base ) and are still doing so , but as of a conversation with a Friend / client that we installed a system for in march last year and for which we are about to start one of this years grain store installations for , on which he is keen to install more , along with another client who we started a very large grain store installation last week who is very keen we quote for a 50kw (and i do not much like to think of some one else installing pv while we are do the installation in the grain store) on top of which we need our pv tickets for another technology we are looking into with another couple of clients !

With out the above we would be hard pushed to warrant the cost , stress and hassle of all form filling bo"""""ks that goes with the joke , that mcs is !!!!

I hope that gives you a little insight into what is in my opinion a dying market that is possibly in its death throws ?
 
Add to these comments the fact that your average "savvy" customer (me being one such..) will certainly not now be considering paying even the stated £6k to £8k for a 3KW system!
Heck, I didn't even pay that for each of the two 4KW systems I had done at the end of Feb! (And those prices with a 43p FIT still being a viable possibility at the time.. of which there being no such incentive now don't forget!)

HTH.
 
Add to these comments the fact that your average "savvy" customer (me being one such..) will certainly not now be considering paying even the stated £6k to £8k for a 3KW system!
Heck, I didn't even pay that for each of the two 4KW systems I had done at the end of Feb! (And those prices with a 43p FIT still being a viable possibility at the time.. of which there being no such incentive now don't forget!)

HTH.

You paid less than £6K-£8K for a 4kWp system in February?
If so then at £5K something that's an amazing price!
 
I thought the same !! Like to know what system .....I would love to offer my customers 4kwp for 5k, but sadly I have a business to run not charity let alone mcs real niceic inspections fees taxes overheads then a wage. I must be doing something wrong.
 
Add to these comments the fact that your average "savvy" customer (me being one such..) will certainly not now be considering paying even the stated £6k to £8k for a 3KW system!
Heck, I didn't even pay that for each of the two 4KW systems I had done at the end of Feb! (And those prices with a 43p FIT still being a viable possibility at the time.. of which there being no such incentive now don't forget!)

HTH.

If I remember rightly, your installation(s) didn't exactly go smoothly. In fact, you came to the forum asking for advice and when it all seemed to be going wrong you stated:

"Currently, I'm so angry I can hardly type!"

http://www.electriciansforums.net/p...having-our-panels-fitted-today-oh-dear-o.html

You didn't have much idea what was going on with your system(s). You had apparently bought purely on price with minimal focus on customer service. You seemed to have little idea of the details involved in a solar panel installation. Maybe you fell on your feet and ended up with a decent system but I'm not sure I would have described you as particularly "savvy" in the early parts of that thread.
 
Or have I got this completely wrong!!!
Yup, unfortunately you're a million miles out. Your kit prices are wrong, sales prices are wrong and even if you got those right there's very few customers about at the minute and those with upwards of 70/80 installations are just about getting by at the minute, most on the strength of their quality of work and recommendations. Given that - even if you could get the prices right you won't have the luxury of finding the first few sympathetic customers who let you take 3 days to install for your first few.

The boat was missed in October/November. It's been a rollercoaster ride since oct which is great if you like that sort of thing - I don't :-(

Have a look round there's loads of other opportunities, visit a few trade fairs and see what's really new to the market.
 
If I remember rightly, your installation(s) didn't exactly go smoothly. In fact, you came to the forum asking for advice and when it all seemed to be going wrong you stated:

"Currently, I'm so angry I can hardly type!"

http://www.electriciansforums.net/p...having-our-panels-fitted-today-oh-dear-o.html

You didn't have much idea what was going on with your system(s). You had apparently bought purely on price with minimal focus on customer service. You seemed to have little idea of the details involved in a solar panel installation. Maybe you fell on your feet and ended up with a decent system but I'm not sure I would have described you as particularly "savvy" in the early parts of that thread.

Not often you see a savvy person pooing their pants, well at least it worked out well for the smug bar steward
 
Oh dear! Pardon me for breathing!!

Was merely trying to point out to the OP that if he is intending to spend a lot of money getting accredited etc. then some idea of pricing lately might help in the decision.

Yes, my first thread on these forums was covering some issues which at the time I got pee'd off about... but as I recall, the general opinion feeding back was that my issues were minor and forgivable under the circumstances. That's the whole point of these pages surely - a problem shared is a problem halved and all that?

Anyway, ok so I'm not that savvy after all then... The fact remains it was two identical 4kw systems fitted before the March deadline, all done and dusted for under £13k.

I'll go back to my wine waiting duties now then... Some nice intelligent comments there chaps, thanks for those! :)
 
Mozzerr, I would be interested in what corners were cut by the installation company to achieve that price, how they treated you originally and the price you paid, it would make me wonder what they actually did with your installations and how long it will last, any way I hope I am wrong, but alarm bells are ringing.
 

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