Discuss Some times I really feel sorry for some clients in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Octopus

Today I got a call from a lady today, asking me if I could come and provide a price to move a socket.

So I duely turned up at the prearranged time.....

1. The had ordered a new cooker from Comet - who had turned up to install it and have refused due to the location of the socket above being "illegal"

Cooker.jpg

2. They've marked the two tiles where a new socket would be OK as the new cooker is a gas unit and only requires a socket (13a plug) supply

3. No RCD protection in the house - so a single RCD socket in the kitchen would be required!

4. No bonding to the gas and water - and the CU is on the opposite side of the detached house - clearly didn't like hearing about the requirement to add this before I can do anything.


This couple are elderly, and judging by the home and their reaction to what I said, don't have much money.

So what would you do.....

1. Play by the rules, insist on the bonding, RCD socket, etc??

or

2. Bend the rules and forget the bonding and RCD's??

Oh happy days!
 
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telectrix

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how is the cooker to be connected, hard wired or on a plug?
 

Marvo

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Hmm, can't you just fit a stainless steel deflector plate under the socket or even something IP55 like one of these?

Outside-Double-Socket-IP55.jpg
 

telectrix

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the ideal remedy would to blank off the offending socket, extend the cables to a new socket below worktops, do the earthing and bonding, and fit RCD to the relevant circuit. obviously, cost is going to be a factor. if the clients are elderly, then there may be grant assistance from the local council.
 

ipf

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What about changing the double socket for an rcd fcu and mt to socket behind cooker.
Not ideal but takes the plug and socket out of the frame. The bonding is another matter, but at least the new wiring is protected.
 

Guitarist

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Surely we want the system to be as safe as possible for an elderly couple, not bend the rules because we "assume" they have no money.
Treat all customers the same as far as regs go imo. If you want to give them a special rate for your labour then obviously that's your call.
The socket needs moving.
 

topquark

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Makes you wonder why the ignition system needs a mains connection, it ain't that hard to generate a spark from a battery source! Lazy manufactuers.

If they're an elderly couple I'd do the bonding for material cost only....coz I'll be there in a few more years :)
 
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Guest55

as others have mentioned , blank off existing skt , then drop down in mini-trunking to new skt behind cooker - 20 mins max.
 

telectrix

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as others have mentioned , blank off existing skt , then drop down in mini-trunking to new skt behind cooker - 20 mins max.
even so, bonding would need to be done. jury's still out on the RCD.
 

imago

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Cheapest option:- Take the cable supplying the socket back to a safe position and blank it off. Give them a box of matches.
 

KevinS

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I agree - option 2
BUT you know fine well, this is the job where something goes wrong ie chip pan fire, fire brigade investigate, the old couple sing like canaries cos their insurance won't pay up, mention about you and the socket. Next thing your standing in front of guy in wig, waving a big green book in front of you saying "you know better blah blah"
i would stick to your gut feeling and do the job properly, you have NOTHING to gain by taking option 1
 
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Guest55

its upto murdoch if he wants to do it by the book or cut some slack to pensioners.
everyone will make that call differently , so we cant advise really.
 
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Octopus

Thanks for your replies guys (and girls).

I'm actually hoping that they wil find a cash monkey to do the "bodge" so I'm not associated in any way!
 
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Guest55

so youre not going to help them out ?
what a nice man :-/
 

Guitarist

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so youre not going to help them out ?
what a nice man :-/
Tbh, I don't help anyone out if it involves breaking the regs. I often help people out by supplying materials at cost or reducing my rate, but not if it involves compromising my standards.
I know this has been said before, but never assume that just because they are old, they are poor. I have come across many elderly living in rags with their heating down low, then I speak to their children who moan about the cash they have stashed and won't spend.
 

telectrix

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alexander has conferred with sergei. siimplees.... moveno cooking machine to the 2 feet to left.
 
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Guest55

Tbh, I don't help anyone out if it involves breaking the regs. I often help people out by supplying materials at cost or reducing my rate, but not if it involves compromising my standards.
I know this has been said before, but never assume that just because they are old, they are poor. I have come across many elderly living in rags with their heating down low, then I speak to their children who moan about the cash they have stashed and won't spend.
that post is worthy of a facepalm of epic proportions.
i hope that you can still afford such high principles on a state pension.
 

ipf

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Tbh, I don't help anyone out if it involves breaking the regs. I often help people out by supplying materials at cost or reducing my rate, but not if it involves compromising my standards.
I know this has been said before, but never assume that just because they are old, they are poor. I have come across many elderly living in rags with their heating down low, then I speak to their children who moan about the cash they have stashed and won't spend.
And don't presume that just because they are old they are not poor. In some cases, I would agree. However, in todays society, if choosing between moaning 'children', who think they are owed something for nothing, and oap parents, I know who I'd believe in most cases. Best case scenario, do things correctly but try not to leave them in the ****, unless they deserve it.
 

ayjay

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Makes you wonder why the ignition system needs a mains connection, it ain't that hard to generate a spark from a battery source! Lazy manufactuers.

If they're an elderly couple I'd do the bonding for material cost only....coz I'll be there in a few more years :)
that cooker has an electric oven/gas hob
 

valleybilly

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Min hieght to any combustable item or otherwise above as Gas hob is 750mm , 650mm Elec , I think they where more concerned over the lead , ie glass getting hot / melting lead . Nothing stopin them using an extention lead if they want to from another source . Ps if its not fitted and gased in , Whats the pan for ?? pmsl , Just blank it of for them ,,,,,,,, Also what are comet doin providing a new appliance with no piggin plug ?????????????
 
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Swicade

I'd put in writing any extra work (like the bonding) quoteing the regs and potential dangers if the extra work wasn't carried out adding a quote for the extra work to be done.That way (in my mind) the customer then has the option to have upgrades done at a later stage or straight away.

I realise by the regs we have to do this, that and the other but i still personaly think it's morally wrong to literally force people to spend far more than they'd ever expect to 'move a socket so they can cook a meal'.

Do the job that's been asked for (in this case move the socket) and quote for earthing to meet the reg's in writing...to me this is how it should be......I didn't become a sparks to force more cash out of people's pockets by using the regs to force them into having more work done....it's thier money and thier option how to spend it.

Obviously is something is an immediate danger they either pay for it to be repaired correctly or i leave it disconnected.
 

telectrix

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nice thoughts, but you simply can't do work on an installation where the bonding is non-existant. you either do it for cost, or walk away, knowing that some muppet will come along and leave them with a potentially dangerous situation.
 
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drew35

Its a difficult one, the problem is if an electrician refuses to do it then a half wit does it instead, what is more dangerous?

As it only involves moving a socket that is already there its not adding anything, do it, test it, get them to sign a note on a minor works to say they refused additional work after it was explained to them. If they were asking you to add new circuits or extra sockets then that would be different.
 

Strima

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I would agree with Drew, you can only expect them to pay for what they want. Any paperwork issued would have to state that bonding is incomplete etc and client refused to upgrade and acknowledges the safety implications.

A rock and a hard place I know but what can you do? Give them a reasonable quote for the bonding work and ask them to get a few other quotes, the ball is in their court. No jury would convict if you pointed out any potentially dangerous installation and the owners refused to act on it.
 

telectrix

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No jury would convict if you pointed out any potentially dangerous installation and the owners refused to act on it.

but if an old dear died, the relatives ( beneficiaries, leeches) would say that they begged you to make it safe and you refused/ said it wasn't necessary, whatever. another few grand in the probate pays for funerals.
 
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