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Got a rewire coming up. Need to fit the new cu. Is it compulsory to fit a SPD?
Pretty sure I interpreted from the regs something along the lines that it’s mainly needed for equipment that will be damaged from under voltage or over voltage or if it will cause danger to any persons. Also if you warn the client about the implications of not installing it is okay to not install it?
I mean let’s be honest what is a spd really going to do for a 3 bed house? If I’m wrong, please educate me a little. I love to learn. I know I can hit the books and read, but you guys have some interesting insights! :cool:
 
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Strima

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The cost of SPDs now easily outweighs the cost of the installation.

Grab a beer and get on Youtube to learn about SPDs.
 

davesparks

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I mean let’s be honest what is a spd really going to do for a 3 bed house?
It will protect the installation against surges, the clue is in the name of the device.

You need to make an assessment of the benefit of the SPD versus the cost of it. Compare the cost of the SPD to the replacement cost of all the equipment it would protect.
Usually an SPD for a domestic CU is significantly cheaper to install then it is to replace the average TV, let alone eall of the other appliances that could be damaged by a surge.
 
I agree with all the comments above, but. How many times have you been to an installation that has been damaged due to the lack of a SPD? Are they really necessary or just clever marketing?
 

DPG

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I agree with all the comments above, but. How many times have you been to an installation that has been damaged due to the lack of a SPD? Are they really necessary or just clever marketing?
Or I would ask 'How many appliance faults have been caused by surges over the years?'
 
I think @Ian1981 mentioned this last week and we are similar the cost is built into the job the client doesn't have a say. We don't do much domestic but whatever scope of job this is what you get.
 

James

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in my own house, i probably wouldn't bother.
at a customers place, why wouldn't you?
£50 on the price of the job, 30 to 40 on the cost of materials. quid's in??

the last thing you want is a customer coming back to you in 10 months time saying that all there tv's and computers have gone bang and they cant understand why because they have an up to date electrical installation and thought it should protect there equipment.
right or wrong, it is an argument that you don't need to have.
 

davesparks

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I agree with all the comments above, but. How many times have you been to an installation that has been damaged due to the lack of a SPD? Are they really necessary or just clever marketing?
Personally never as far as I know, but then I've only been to a tiny fraction of the number of installations in this country so the sample size is far too small to make this a valid reason not to fit one.

I have seen a couple of pieces of equipment which have suffered damage which may have been caused by a surge and could have been prevented by an SPD.
 

James

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I am going for the clever marketing theory.

Not seen many things damaged by a surge.
Seen stuff destroyed by lightning, spd not going to protect against that.
Seen stuff damaged by loss of neutral, not sure if spd could protect against prolonged overvoltage.
 

DPG

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I am going for the clever marketing theory.

Not seen many things damaged by a surge.
Seen stuff destroyed by lightning, spd not going to protect against that.
Seen stuff damaged by loss of neutral, not sure if spd could protect against prolonged overvoltage.
You wouldn't normally know whether a faulty piece of equipment became faulty because of a voltage spike. It certainly happens.

And although an SPD obviously wouldn't protect against a direct lightning strike, it could well protect against induced spikes on power lines that have been caused by nearby strikes.

I'm reminded of a company which once reduced the cost of one of its products by removing surge protection diodes. Guess what happened to the failure rate? Then tell me SPDs are not a good thing.
 

davesparks

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I am going for the clever marketing theory.

Not seen many things damaged by a surge.
Seen stuff destroyed by lightning, spd not going to protect against that.
Seen stuff damaged by loss of neutral, not sure if spd could protect against prolonged overvoltage.
The fact you have not seenany suggests that you have seen some?

What about things that stopped working but the reason was never investigated, how many of them might have been caused by surges?
 

mattg4321

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You don't have to fit an SPD in a single dwelling unit. You don't need to do a risk assessment

It might be a good idea to fit one, depending on cost.

The problem I have is I really like to fit Hager consumer units. I don't know if its the same for everyone, but adding an SPD is costing me more like £80 extra so I tend not to as the customers are not keen on that much extra cost.
 
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  • #16
Just fit it.
It will protect the installation against surges, the clue is in the name of the device.

You need to make an assessment of the benefit of the SPD versus the cost of it. Compare the cost of the SPD to the replacement cost of all the equipment it would protect.
Usually an SPD for a domestic CU is significantly cheaper to install then it is to replace the average TV, let alone eall of the other appliances that could be damaged by a surge.
Yeah I mean I know what it does really but over many years I’ve never had any equipment mess up due to a surge or anyone else have this problem. Probably will just fit it after reading everyone’s views
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£30 for a SPD is a no brainer. No reason really not to fit them, unless of course there is absolutely no chance they are needed.
Was planning to fit a Hager board, the spd is about £70-80. Need to look for one included.
 

DPG

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Yeah I mean I know what it does really but over many years I’ve never had any equipment mess up due to a surge or anyone else have this problem. Probably will just fit it after reading everyone’s views
But you don't know that. It's often difficult to prove what actually causes equipment to fail.
 
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I agree with all the comments above, but. How many times have you been to an installation that has been damaged due to the lack of a SPD? Are they really necessary or just clever marketing?
Yeah this is what I’m saying
 

davesparks

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over many years I’ve never had any equipment mess up due to a surge or anyone else have this problem.
How much failed electronic equipment have you actually looked at in detail to establish the cause of it being damaged?

As for knowing of other people having seen it, it's not exactly going to be the first thing your friends tell you about when you speak to them.

In my life I've known of quite a few appliances stop working for no apparent reason and never bothered to find out why, just replaced them and carried on. TVs, microwaves, boiler programmers, the clock in gas cookers, countless phone chargers.
 
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For £40 I’d rather just fit it than bother doing the calculation/rail assessment 😁
in my own house, i probably wouldn't bother.
at a customers place, why wouldn't you?
£50 on the price of the job, 30 to 40 on the cost of materials. quid's in??

the last thing you want is a customer coming back to you in 10 months time saying that all there tv's and computers have gone bang and they cant understand why because they have an up to date electrical installation and thought it should protect there equipment.
right or wrong, it is an argument that you don't need to have.
Yeah I’m getting this idea too but it’s like the chances of that happening are very slim don’t you think? Will probably just fit in anyway
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Or I would ask 'How many appliance faults have been caused by surges over the years?'
Will never know if it just becomes faulty on its own or if it’s surged
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I am going for the clever marketing theory.

Not seen many things damaged by a surge.
Seen stuff destroyed by lightning, spd not going to protect against that.
Seen stuff damaged by loss of neutral, not sure if spd could protect against prolonged overvoltage.
Oh I thought it actually protects from lightning / power loss / voltage disturbance
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You don't have to fit an SPD in a single dwelling unit. You don't need to do a risk assessment

It might be a good idea to fit one, depending on cost.

The problem I have is I really like to fit Hager consumer units. I don't know if its the same for everyone, but adding an SPD is costing me more like £80 extra so I tend not to as the customers are not keen on that much extra cost.
This is exactly my dilemma. I’m going for a Hager split rcd board. The spd is about £80. I know this might sound wrong but should I just include the spd as part of the consumer unit material cost without mentioning the spd itself? The customer will more than likely be like ahh nah leave that then I’ll be thinking I should fit it then it’ll be like a debate about an spd which “Might” save their appliances. You know how it goes. “If it works, don’t worry about it” the client will say lol :rolleyes:
 
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But you don't know that. It's often difficult to prove what actually causes equipment to fail.
That’s right and I guess it’s a risk if I don’t fit it. I’ll just fit it
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How do you know how many appliances have become faulty because of a voltage spike?
I don’t and I guess that’s a risk I won’t take by not fitting a spd.
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How much failed electronic equipment have you actually looked at in detail to establish the cause of it being damaged?

As for knowing of other people having seen it, it's not exactly going to be the first thing your friends tell you about when you speak to them.

In my life I've known of quite a few appliances stop working for no apparent reason and never bothered to find out why, just replaced them and carried on. TVs, microwaves, boiler programmers, the clock in gas cookers, countless phone chargers.
I guess then, once the spd is fitted, if it gets knackered and needs to be replaced, this would of probably saved an appliance or more
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You don't have to fit an SPD in a single dwelling unit. You don't need to do a risk assessment

It might be a good idea to fit one, depending on cost.

The problem I have is I really like to fit Hager consumer units. I don't know if its the same for everyone, but adding an SPD is costing me more like £80 extra so I tend not to as the customers are not keen on that much extra cost.
I’m having a look at Hager boards split rcd online with the fitted spd. I’m putting in 9 circuits so will want 3 ways free to come to the next available amount of ways Hager would offer which would be 12 way. But if I saw a board which said 12 way split rcd with spd. Does this mean I have an actual 12 ways for 12 mcbs to be used? Or would the spd take 2 of the ways leaving me with 10 ways (1 spare)? If you could pm me please
 
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Baddegg

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Cp fusebox come with spd fitted as standard on they empty boards, been using em for a while now with no probs at all..,,
 
Get something like this, factory fitted spd and twelve ways for rcbos.
 
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mattg4321

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Get something like this, factory fitted spd and twelve ways for rcbos.
For a 12 way consumer unit, that would add nearly £200 to my price.

I usually fit high integrity, with 2/3 RCBO’s
 

richy3333

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I’m paying slightly less than £100 on that board. Deals to be had if you shop around. Hager SPDs on their own we are paying mid£60 for. Look after your wholesalers and they’ll look after you 👍
 

mattg4321

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Why the dislike on my post @richy3333 ?

What’s the price difference you are getting between 10 way high integrity with 8mcbs and the same but with SPD also.

The difference is around £80 whichever wholesaler I speak to
 

richy3333

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Why the dislike on my post @richy3333 ?

What’s the price difference you are getting between 10 way high integrity with 8mcbs and the same but with SPD also.

The difference is around £80 whichever wholesaler I speak to
I disliked your post and your previous one on the other thread because its my view that your reading of the regs is not correct regarding the fitting of SPD's in a domestic situation. We dont even give the customer a choice, we just explain what they are and why we are fitting them. If customers are that penny pinching over an SPD then they aren't my customer (we aren't bottom feeders - not suggesting you are either BTW).

Regarding CU's I have fitted only 1 or 2 high integrity boards in the last 8 years. We only fit Hager RCBO boards or (presently) fusebox RCBO if the client needs cheaper; but we normally sell them Hager. We fit Hager 3PH also. We do at least a board change a week, 2 this week and all Hager RCBO's. We literally buy 100's of RCBO's a year. Its now made good for us with the Hager points rewards.
 

mattg4321

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That's all well and good, but it still doesn't mean an SPD has to be fitted.

The regs say its not required and no risk assessment is needed. Your personal opinion might be different, but that is what it says in black and white.

Nearly all my customers choose not to pay the £80 extra for an SPD. I'm not going to fit one out of my own pocket. I'd rather £80 in my pocket than Hager's.

I'd like to fit RCBO's on all circuits. In reality it's simply not necessary for most houses with an installation in good condition. I fit them on circuits supplying anything outdoors and ground floor sockets that might be used outdoors/supply kitchen appliances. These cover 99% of RCD trip instances imo.

I have a sign in my van that reminds me, business first, electrician second.
 

richy3333

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Hi @mattg4321 its not personal opinion but interpretation of the regs. There are members on here with far more knowledge and experience than me that agree. Industry ambassadors (like the E5 group or GSH, Efixx et al) also feel the same.

I've not suggested you should pay for the device out of your own pocket?

I dont agree that RCBO boards are 'simply not necessary' when you take into account earth leakage, DC leakage of equipment, devision of circuits, inconvenience and functionality of the installation. Theres industry talk that split load boards could be phased out in coming years so that doesn't really support your stance. I would be failing my customers and also the regs by just fitting a split load board without proper consideration at the design stage of a wire/rewire/board change. Do you not discuss these factors with your customers so they can make an informed decision?

We have differing views on the matter of SPD's and clearly different USP's/models with regards to running our own businesses so I dont see us coming to any collective agreement, but will respect your position.
 

davesparks

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The regs say its not required and no risk assessment is needed. Your personal opinion might be different, but that is what it says in black and white.
I think you may be reading the wrong regs book.

15962822127454355106335947587626.jpg

This basically means that:
If the risk assessment is not performed SPDs must be fitted except for single dwelling units where the total value of the installation and equipment therein does not justify such protection.

This means that you can perform a risk assessment to establish whether SPDs are needed or, for single dwelling units, you can effectively do a cost/benefit analysis.

You need to consider the value of the installation and equipment. For this analysis you could start with the purely financial value:
What is the financial value of the parts of the installation that could be damaged by a surge, the cost of all RCDs, RCBO's, USB sockets, LED lights and their drivers, central heating controls, boiler PCB.
Then add this to the financial value of all the equipment in the installation which could be damaged by a surge, so TV, radio, phone chargers, some appliances.
Add this together and compare it to the cost of installing an SPD.

So if the replacement value of everything that could be damaged by a surge is say, a few hundred pounds you could argue that it isn't worth the £80 SPD.
But if it is getting on for £1k or more, the £80 SPD becomes a no brainer.

Of course this reg doesn't specify financial value, just value, so you need to factor in other things like the cost of being without a piece of equipment. So if someone works from home using a computer connected to the Internet, which is quite a lot of people in the current situation what value is that equipment if lost due to a surge?
 

mattg4321

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I read it as a statement of fact not a question.

There is no doubt that using your method means that every dwelling would need an SPD. If that’s the case thenjust make it mandatory? Why is there no need for a risk assessment even?

I’d rather it was made mandatory to save the confusion personally.

The guidance I got from the NIC was to ask the customer. What good is that? How are they meant to make a decision when even we are struggling to?

Im reading the correct regs book. Tell me where it says that an SPD is required? It’s very poorly worded and open to wide interpretation, but it certainly doesn’t say an SPD is required in a single unit dwelling.
 

davesparks

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Im reading the correct regs book. Tell me where it says that an SPD is required? It’s very poorly worded and open to wide interpretation, but it certainly doesn’t say an SPD is required in a single unit dwelling.
In the first paragraph after the list of places where SPDs areandatory in the picture I posted.

It is not poorly worded or open to wide interpretation.

It says, quite clearly, that there is an exception for single dwelling units where the value of the installation and equipment therein does not justify the protection.

This does not mean that all single dwelling units are exempt, it means that only single dwelling units where the value of the protected installation and equipment does not justify the installation of an SPD.

This means that you must assess the value of the installation and use this to establish whether it justifies the installation of an SPD.
 

Midwest

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I read it as a statement of fact not a question.

There is no doubt that using your method means that every dwelling would need an SPD. If that’s the case thenjust make it mandatory? Why is there no need for a risk assessment even?

I’d rather it was made mandatory to save the confusion personally.

The guidance I got from the NIC was to ask the customer. What good is that? How are they meant to make a decision when even we are struggling to?

Im reading the correct regs book. Tell me where it says that an SPD is required? It’s very poorly worded and open to wide interpretation, but it certainly doesn’t say an SPD is required in a single unit dwelling.
Have to agree with you. The regs are not written in very good English, and often leaves things open to interpretation. 'Except for single dwelling, where the total value of the installation and equipment therein, does not justify such protection', IMO does not suggest you carry out a pound for pound calculation or subtraction. Its merely stating, they would not be considered necessary.

But I get the argument, that as they are relatively cheap, compared to say AFDD's, it doesn't make sense not to fit them. But I expect, new cheaper domestic, like social housing (perhaps), they would not be specified.
 

mattg4321

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I really respect your opinion Dave, but nowhere does it say you have to try and determine the value of the installation.

It gives no guidelines as to how this is even done. We’re all filling in the blanks. You’ve come up with a procedure for working out whether or not SPD’s are required, but the reality is that they are not required and no evidence is required that you have put any thought whatsoever into why they are not required.

In my opinion the chances of home working being disrupted are far greater through things like power cuts and ISP service dropouts, yet we don’t go around suggesting generators and UPS’ etc
 
I like seeing these issues thrashed out, but can't help wondering about situations where including surge protection is less straightforward.

Thinking specifically about tails being in excess of 1m, where a separate unit would have to be installed closer to the cut out or a TT installation that required type 1&2 protection (which seems to limit options and considerably increase cost). Would those who automatically include an SPD in every installation quote for whatever was necessary or would the additional cost mean that these situations might first be discussed with the customer?
 

davesparks

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Have to agree with you. The regs are not written in very good English, and often leaves things open to interpretation.
Actually they are, for the most part, written in very good English with a high level of technical accuracy.
The problem is often people not understanding technically correct English.

Words like 'should' have a specific meaning in such documents but a lot of people fail to understand this and tend to assume the common, but technically incorrect, usage.

Interpretation is also required yes, in the same way that all rules, regulations and laws require interpretation for use in the real world. This does mean they are open to interpretation or that we are free to interpret them in whatever way suits our own opinions.
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I really respect your opinion Dave, but nowhere does it say you have to try and determine the value of the installation.

It gives no guidelines as to how this is even done.

no evidence is required that you have put any thought whatsoever into why they are not required.
It doesn't say exactly that no, it says that they are not required where the value of the protected installation does not justify it.
How do you know whether the value justifies it without knowing the value in the first place?
Sometimes it will be obvious, sometimes not. It is obvious somewhere such as my grandparents house it wouldn't be justified, the small number of susceptible appliances is obvious.
My sister's house however has half a dozen games consoles, big TV and countless other gadgets permanently plugged in, surge protection would be justified.

The Regulations dont give guidelines on how to do things, they set out the requirements. Regulations are not how to do it books!
The regulations dont give guidelines on how to join two bits of trunking together or how to fix them to the wall, they just set out the requirements that must be met for those processes.

No evidence is required for a great many regulations. No evidence is required to prove that you calculated cable sizes correctly, no evidence is required to support any of your installation design decisions. It doesn't mean that you can just ignore any part of the regulations though.
 
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mattg4321

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I seem to have a problem justifying SPD’s to my customers as when I mention them as an option at a cost of £80, I invariably get the response that they have never had a problem with appliances failing etc so don’t see the need.

When we are looking at what size cables to use there are various tables and formulae to use, all within a fairly precise framework. We are not told to simply ‘select the correct size cable’. We follow a procedure to reach a decision.

When deciding whether or not to fit an SPD in a single unit dwelling, there is no such procedure. Are we to go around totting up the value of customers appliances before we reach a decision? Better not forget the cupboard under the stairs where there could be some valuable appliances boxed up that might be plugged in at some point.

Not fitting an SPD doesn’t mean someone has ‘ignored the regulations’. You yourself just agreed that they don’t mandate the fitting of an SPD in a single unit dwelling. We are to decide with no guidance whether or not we can justify fitting one.

If I was of the opinion that I didn’t need an SPD as I’d never had an appliance go wrong in say 50 years at the same address, how could I possibly justify fitting one now? Especially given it is not really an issue of safety.

This particular regulation is a total mess.
 

davesparks

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If I was of the opinion that I didn’t need an SPD as I’d never had an appliance go wrong in say 50 years at the same address, how could I possibly justify fitting one now? Especially given it is not really an issue of safety.

This particular regulation is a total mess.
I've never died of an electric shock so I don't need RCDs.

It is not a total mess, it is very clear and straightforward.

I'm sure if you look for it there will be guidance, the IET love to keep publishing guidance notes to accompany the regulations.
 

pc1966

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I seem to have a problem justifying SPD’s to my customers as when I mention them as an option at a cost of £80, I invariably get the response that they have never had a problem with appliances failing etc so don’t see the need.
Probably the same folk who have paid £30 or more for a surge-protection block for their PC, another for their TV, etc.

I get your point that it has not been past practice and the regulations do not make it mandatory, but with the increasing use of LED lighting and all sorts of "smart" devices (a rant for another day...) make them highly desirable to anyone who understands the trade-off.

I guess that is an issue for engaging the customer, but various folk (above) have decided the easiest path to doing things in a way they believe is correct is not to ask and just to included it as part of the normal service.

Asking folk is often not as productive as you might hope, just look at elections!
 

richy3333

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@pc1966 I think @davesparks has made the issue far clearer than I could have said in his recent posts. The regs dont use words like 'mandatory' or 'desirable', they cant as they are not an Statutory Instrument but the use of the phraseology 'shall be' is clear enough.

As for surge protection blocks - extension leads i.e. thats a debate for another day, particularly if different manufacturers are being used :tearsofjoy:
 

GBDamo

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"Except for single dwelling, where the total value of the installation and equipment therein, does not justify such protection',"

That is not an instruction to determine a requirement but a statement that the determination has been made and there is no requirement.

Typically poor language.

I fit SPDs because I'm a coward.
 

mattg4321

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I've never died of an electric shock so I don't need RCDs.

It is not a total mess, it is very clear and straightforward.

I'm sure if you look for it there will be guidance, the IET love to keep publishing guidance notes to accompany the regulations.
Think you’re perhaps being a little disingenuous here.

RCD’s are a safety issue. We should err on the side of caution. SPD’s are not.

Calling this particular regulation clear and straightforward is akin to saying Boris and his chums have given clear and straightforward advice!
 
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Alright after reading all of this i've come to the conclusion that i will fit a spd as part of the consumer unit price. im not going to bother mentioning it to the customer can't be asked trying to untangle their brains.
 

ipf

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Alright after reading all of this i've come to the conclusion that i will fit a spd as part of the consumer unit price. im not going to bother mentioning it to the customer can't be asked trying to untangle their brains.
Well thought out. ;)
 

Midwest

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Actually they are, for the most part, written in very good English with a high level of technical accuracy.
The problem is often people not understanding technically correct English.

Words like 'should' have a specific meaning in such documents but a lot of people fail to understand this and tend to assume the common, but technically incorrect, usage.

Interpretation is also required yes, in the same way that all rules, regulations and laws require interpretation for use in the real world. This does mean they are open to interpretation or that we are free to interpret them in whatever way suits our own
Disagree. Unlike the text in law written in criminal & civil law offences, documents like BS7671 hardly ever get challenged. Whilst its a technical document, it also tells how certain things should be done, as in this regulation. It even gives us here, a formulae to work out the calculated risk level. However, in the case of single dwelling units, it gives no clear method of calculation. In a criminal law offense, in court this sort of thing is challenged, and the wording of the offense evolves over time.

Like in 421.1.201 (back in 2015), we've had many debates over 'similar switchgear assemblies'. In 5 years, and the debate over that phrase (Google it and see the disagreement), you think they could of given some more clarity for those three words.
 

GBDamo

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"Except for single dwelling, where the total value of the installation and equipment therein, does not justify such protection',"

That is not an instruction to determine a requirement but a statement that the determination has been made and there is no requirement.

Typically poor language.

I fit SPDs because I'm a coward.
The critical word is 'where' as in "where the total value..."

'Where' can be used as a conditional adverb, pronoun or conjuction. Without knowing the authors intent it is open to interpretation and in a de facto statutory document that is not good enough.

Had this statement been meant as an instruction to make an assessment of value they should have used 'if' instead of 'where' and provided an example, or guidance, of how this determination should be made.

It is a very good example of subjective reality where the reader has a set of opinions that form their decision making subconsciously.
 

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