Discuss Supp bonding on a new job. in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

Amp David

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Have to put in a fused spur for a underfloor heating mat in a bathroom. The spur will be an RCD type, but the CU has no RCD protection.

The only bit of supp bonding is from the shower pull switch to the cold pipe supplying the shower, which is in the loft space.

The problem for me is that the bathroom boys have already done a subfloor for the heating mat so can't get the hot and cold for the taps, or the heating pipes.

How would others go about getting the pipes cross bonded to the lights/shower/FCU etc.:rolleyes:
 
I reckon the easiest way will be to update the room to the 17th, no supplementary bonding is then required, it will mean a continuity check between the MET and all exposed extraneous metalwork pipes etc to check that they are effectively connected to the earthing system, it will mean of course that any other circuits in the room will also have to be RCD protected
 
I reckon the easiest way will be to update the room to the 17th, no supplementary bonding is then required, it will mean a continuity check between the MET and all exposed extraneous metalwork pipes etc to check that they are effectively connected to the earthing system, it will mean of course that any other circuits in the room will also have to be RCD protected

Thats the problem, no extra money for putting in RCDs for shower and lights and 3036 fuses so no RCBOs. If they ain't paying for them, then they're not going to be wanting to pay labour for testing afterwards:mad:
 
Right then, how about then a link from the shower pull switch to the either the light or its ceiling switch, then are the hot and cold pipes and the cold mains feed accessible outside the room eg in the airing cupboard, if so it would be acceptable to bond there, then a continuity check between all accessible mwork and cpc`s, a reading of 0.05 ohms or below being good
 
David.Out of curiosity are there no visible sections at all of the pipes to the Basin or Radiator ?
Is it a high current using shower or a 3 Amp jobby ?
ATB S

Pipes to the rad are visible as they come up from the floor. Pipes to bath are behind the bath side which is all tile and the basin pipes are in the wall and come out and connect to the taps right up behind the basin.

The shower is a Mira 8 or 9 KW
 
Cant get to the pipes to the bath as its all tiled etc and getting in behind the sink is almost impossible. God knows how it was plumbed in originally
 
Often new or altered plumbing is plastic coming into the location and copper where it shows,in which case there is no requirement to bond.Otherwise as above in an airing cupboard or similar location....Remember it is acceptable to use a copper pipe as a supplementary bonding conductor as long as it is electrically continuous,which often means bonding can take place outside of the location.
 
701.415.2 states SEB may be installed outside or inside rooms containing a bath or shower preferably close to point of entry of Extraneous conductive parts into such rooms, doesn't say it must be close.
Food for thought
 
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2. - Supplementary bonding conductors
These conductors connect together extraneous conductive parts - that is, metalwork which is not associated with the electrical installation but which may provide a conducting path giving rise to shock. The object is to ensure that potential differences in excess of 50 V between accessible metalwork cannot occur; this means that the resistance of the bonding conductors must be low {Figure 5.14} shows some of the extraneous metalwork in a bathroom which must be bonded.

Table 5.6 - Supplementary bonding conductor sizes


5.14b.gif

Fig 5.14 Supplementary bonding in a bathroom
The cross-sectional areas required for supplementary bonding conductors are shown in {Table 5.6}. Where connections are between extraneous parts only, the conductors may be 2.5 mm² if mechanically protected or 4 mm²if not protected. If the circuit protective conductor is larger than 10 mm², the supplementary bonding conductor must have have at least half this cross-sectional area. Supplementary bonding conductors of less than 16 mm² cross sectional area must not be aluminium. {Fig 5.15} shows the application of a supplementary bonding conductor to prevent the severe shock which could otherwise occur between the live case of a faulty electric kettle and an adjacent water tap.
There will sometimes be doubt if a particular piece of metalwork should be bonded. The answer must always be that bonding will be necessary if there is a danger of severe shock when contact is made between a live system and the metal work in question. Thus if the resistance between the metalwork and the general mass of earth is low enough to permit the passage of a dangerous shock current, then the metalwork must be bonded.
The question can be resolved by measuring the resistance (Rx) from the metalwork concerned to the main earthing terminal. Using this value in the formula:
Ib = Uo Rp + Rx
will allow calculation of the maximum current likely to pass through the human body where :
Ib - is the shock current through the body (A)Uo - Is the voltage of the supply (V)RP -is the resistance of the human body (Ohms) andRx - is the measured resistance from the metalwork concernedto the main earthing terminal (Ohms)

The resistance of the human body, RP can in most cases be taken as 1000 Ohms although 200 Ohms would be a safer value if the metalwork in question can be touched by a person in a bath. Although no hard and fast rules are possible for the value of a safe shock current, Ib, it is probable that 10 mA is seldom likely to prove fatal. Using this value with 240 V for the supply voltage, uo, and 1000 Ohms as the human body resistance, RP, the minimum safe value of RP calculates to 23 kOhms. If the safer values of 5 mA for Ib and 200 Ohms for RP are used, the value of Rx would be 47.8 kOhms for a 240 V supply.


Found this ditty about supp bonding. As WP said the cpc of a circuit or section of pipework can be used as a supp bonding conductor as long as the joints are permanent. If they are compression fittings you will have to loop a supp bonding conductor across the joint.
 
What I don't understand frankly I never have ,is anyone seriously suggesting you run m1 sticky back up a new tiled bathroom to join CPC's to SBC's ? If the main bonding is in place it is effectively bonded through the continuous copper pipes ? 415.2.1 states the CPC's must be connected to the Equipotential bonding well it is isn't it via the main bonding and MET ? I thought the formula was R< 50 V/Ia as in 415.2.2
 
You are quite right...nobody is suggesting that the bonding wires have to be surface up a bathroom wall though.
The idea of supplementary bonding is simply to reduce the shock risk during fault conditions in a location of increased shock risk.Pipes may not be electrically continuous and may introduce an earth potential into the location which is not electrically bonded to rest of the earthing system.....thats the theory.
My theory is in accordance with yours,as long as main bonding is carried out correctly supplementary is a waste of time and effort....I think the fact that it can now be omitted if certain conditions are met means the IEE are beginning to think along the same lines.
 
Often new or altered plumbing is plastic coming into the location and copper where it shows,in which case there is no requirement to bond.Otherwise as above in an airing cupboard or similar location....Remember it is acceptable to use a copper pipe as a supplementary bonding conductor as long as it is electrically continuous,which often means bonding can take place outside of the location.
interesting stuff wirepuller, this begs the question, I'm looking to connect twin & earth from the rose in the kitchen through the brick wall (have to drill) to the ajacent room, but there is a copper pipe (central heating) running across the wall where the plastic conduit containing the twin & earth will run to provide a rose in the ajacent room, so the twin &earth will have to run directly on top of the pipe, there is of course supplumentray bonding connected to the copper pipe already in the kitchen being outside the location, what do u think, thx a big one in advance:)
 
Just try and keep the cable as far as practicable from any external heat source even if it is in trunking, if it starts cooking you could have problems BRB 522.2.1 covers this.

ATB S
 
Just try and keep the cable as far as practicable from any external heat source even if it is in trunking, if it starts cooking you could have problems BRB 522.2.1 covers this.

ATB S
cheers, the reason being I need get an accessment done for niceic, but it's goin to be to close for comfort I think on this like a couple cm...plan b fit a new consermer unit instead...that way won't dread on any toes! I think:eek:
 

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