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Discuss T&E outside ? in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

D

Dellsmp

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Firstly, Hi, first time poster here.:)
Looking for an expert in 17th regs to point out exactly where it is written that T&E cannot be used outside.
My research has unearthed the following:

T&E specs: Basec 6242Y approval (what does that mean?)
BS 6004 (BS7671 Page 266, defines this as: 'cables for electric power, lighting and internal wiring') ie does'nt preclude its use outside.
BS 7671 page 328 external influences solar radiation codes AN1,AN2,AN3
BS 7671 page 90 512.2.4 note 1: classes of external influence regarded as normal are xx1, so AN1 is to be considered normal, therefore according to note b (bottom of page 328) 'ordinary equipment will operate safely under described external influences'.

So, as far as I can see T&E can be used outside,with no extra protection for sunlight, and should not cause any concerns when conducting pir's etc.

I know this has been 'dealt with' many times before, but I have yet to see a definitive statement which says we cannot use T&E outside.
Quite the contrary, BS7671 appears to allow it.
Discuss.......
 
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W

WarrenG

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
Firstly, Hi, first time poster here.:)
Looking for an expert in 17th regs to point out exactly where it is written that T&E cannot be used outside.
My research has unearthed the following:

T&E specs: Basec 6242Y approval (what does that mean?)
BS 6004 (BS7671 Page 266, defines this as: 'cables for electric power, lighting and internal wiring') ie does'nt preclude its use outside.
BS 7671 page 328 external influences solar radiation codes AN1,AN2,AN3
BS 7671 page 90 512.2.4 note 1: classes of external influence regarded as normal are xx1, so AN1 is to be considered normal, therefore according to note b (bottom of page 328) 'ordinary equipment will operate safely under described external influences'.

So, as far as I can see T&E can be used outside,with no extra protection for sunlight, and should not cause any concerns when conducting pir's etc.

I know this has been 'dealt with' many times before, but I have yet to see a definitive statement which says we cannot use T&E outside.
Quite the contrary, BS7671 appears to allow it.
Discuss.......
I seem to recall the operating temperature of PVC cable was between 0 degree's and 70 degree's and therefore if installed outside the cold temperature would damage the PVC cable and make it brittle (breaking down the installation properties) if dropped below this level?

Not sure where you would find that in the regs book though?

Warren

Found this link for you which does say that the operating temperature's for PVC cable qouted in the 16th Ed should not be worked below 5 degree's. Would assume no change for the 17th Ed.

Untitled
 
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T

tony.towa

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
Look at the manufacturers specifications and recommendations and then decide if using it externally will comply with these and consequently the 17th edition
 
B

bahco

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
i was allways under the impression that pvc was a big no no outside, yeah its waterproof but its open to the elements and can decay overtime and then the problems appear.

i allways use white fp200 outside on houses for floods and lights, but going back to the reg i havnt seen one
 

jeremy

-
Mentor
Arms
6242 is not UV stable ie UV deplasticizes the mech protection therefore compromising its function. If you have to use elec. products outside use ones that are sheathed in "Carbon Black" which allegedly is a UV stable covering
 
D

Dellsmp

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Thanks for the replies.
I dont want to use the stuff outside, but I would like to be able to quote a definite reg that prohibits its use outside, and that is what I cannot locate.
What does a BASEC approval 6242 actually approve?
Apart from that, everything else seems to permit t&e outside.
Thanks again, and it is much appreciated that there aren't any responses similar to those found on other (s******x) forums!
 
W

WarrenG

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Thanks for the replies.
I dont want to use the stuff outside, but I would like to be able to quote a definite reg that prohibits its use outside, and that is what I cannot locate.
What does a BASEC approval 6242 actually approve?
Apart from that, everything else seems to permit t&e outside.
Thanks again, and it is much appreciated that there aren't any responses similar to those found on other (s******x) forums!
Sounds like you are trying to convince a customer or maybe a DIYer?

As previously posted I recalled something back in my electrician training regarding the outside temperature and the use of T&E being unsuitable but trying to find a regulation for it is another story.

What I would say is that Appendix 5 of the 17th Edition Regulations is for Classification of External Influences and under 'Enviroment' there are some 'AA' codes for ambient temperature. I am pretty sure when studying for the electrical design qualification that code 'AA4 -5 degrees to + 40 degrees' was used for external temperatures in the UK as this temperature was the closest to the UK?

With that in mind there is a note next to the code saying - Normal (in certain cases special precautions may be necessary) which is in the column for selection and erection of equipment.

If T&E temp ranges are between +5 degrees and 70 degrees then when the temperature here in the UK drops below +5 degrees the T&E cable doesnt meet the design criteria.

Having said all that with the exception of SWA for mechanical protection there is Hi-Tuf cable which maybe more suitable for use with an outside applications.

Hituf - Protected Cables

Hope this helps!

Warren
 
M

Moog

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
see 559.3, 559.6, 559.10 for lighting circuits, 559.10.5.1 gives external influences Problem with T&E is lack of mechanical protection, suffers from problems due to attack by plants and animals as well as PVC degrading in direct sunlight and becoming brittle at low temperatures. If you have someone insisting on T&E outside then tell him it will have to be inspected quarterly for circuit degradation. Cost of quarterly PIR for ever against price of SWA should give him the idea. If he doesn't do the PIR your off the hook if circuit fails
 
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A

Adz

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
check out 522.11.1 !
 
O

optician

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
I am pleased this discussion came up, because I am about to run some cable for outside lights, on my own house. Mosty the cable (t&e) can be run inside, how ever there is a small stretch that will need to be outside.
I was hoping to run t&e in white plastic conduit (the house is white) under the lip of the garage flat roof.

Obviously the conduit covers the mechanical and I think the direct sun light aspect, but the minimum temp area is a prob, so there fore should I be running arctic cable in the conduit?

Any advice would be appreciated.
 
M

maddfridge

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
I am pleased this discussion came up, because I am about to run some cable for outside lights, on my own house. Mosty the cable (t&e) can be run inside, how ever there is a small stretch that will need to be outside.
I was hoping to run t&e in white plastic conduit (the house is white) under the lip of the garage flat roof.

Obviously the conduit covers the mechanical and I think the direct sun light aspect, but the minimum temp area is a prob, so there fore should I be running arctic cable in the conduit?

Any advice would be appreciated.

stick it in steel conduit and apply rating factor for amient temp or use 90 swa
 
K

Kris

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
Just use FP200 white if you use the shielded stuff it complies for mechanical protection because anything penetrating it will always hit the cpc and I'm fairly sure its ok for light and weather to.

As for t&e its gonna be external influences App 5.
 

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