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J

jibspark

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Hi All,

A quick question for you all,

if i perform some minor work (falling outside of Part P) in a domestic premesis can i test it as a qualified spark or do i need to have done my 2391?

I seem to remember someone telling me that i would legally qualified to test anything that doesnt fall under the part p umbrella. Just want to double check.
 
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E

EasyFox

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  • #2
Hi All,

A quick question for you all,

if i perform some minor work (falling outside of Part P) in a domestic premesis can i test it as a qualified spark or do i need to have done my 2391?

I seem to remember someone telling me that i would legally qualified to test anything that doesnt fall under the part p umbrella. Just want to double check.
A grey area.
If you are testing any electrical installation you need to be competent to do so.
How do you proove competency?.......well having C&G2391 & 2360/2330 go some way to prooving this competency as does experience in the electrical industry.
If you do some work & it all goes T**'s up & you end up in court for what ever reason, I suspect the first thing you'll be asked is "are you competent to be testing electrical installations", again having a 2391 certificate goes some way to showing that you have the attained the required skills to undertake testing.

As for the legality of testing, it doesn't matter if it's part P or not if competent to do so you can & should (BS7671) test it, but if it's part P notifiable work what you will not be able to do is selfcertify (unless registered with scheme operator) the work upon completion.

Thats how it was explained to me......what you need is ban-all-sheds to give the full run down seem to remember him having a wealth of legal info on this type of stuff.
 
J

jibspark

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
great advice, thankyou. i have my 2330 and NVQ3 but no 2391, i plan to do it in the future but i want a rest from college for a couple of months! so to sume up, i can legally issue minor works certs and periodics for domestic dwellings but it would be better if i had my 2391?

thanks again.
 
S

Submains

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
All the qualifications in the world will not make you competent. The only way is to join a registered organisation and they will assess you and let you use their nice headed inspection forms.
C&G 2381 & 2391 (soon to be changed) are a minimum requirement.
 
E

EasyFox

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
All the qualifications in the world will not make you competent. The only way is to join a registered organisation and they will assess you and let you use their nice headed inspection forms.
C&G 2381 & 2391 (soon to be changed) are a minimum requirement.
What cobblars
You dont have to be a member of any scheme operators or registered organisations to undertake electrical work & the test inspection of such work or periodics.
If so why do the likes of NICEIC sell the green cert/reports to all unsundry who aren't registered.
Come to that the IEE website has downloadable BS7671 certs/reports for all to use.
Or even copy those from the back of 7671 regs book.
 
S

Submains

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Yes. Very good.
I'm sure the insurance company will pay the client out after a fire when he produces his certification from a non registered person/organisation. Not.

My mates a good diy'er. He's was fed up with his rewireable fuses blowing all the time so he changes his fuseboard and uprates the his protective devices.
Purchases his green cert (only for non approved contractors) and fills it out.
Cable meltdown follows and small fire strangely starts.

Catch my drift.
 
E

EasyFox

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Yes. Very good.
I'm sure the insurance company will pay the client out after a fire when he produces his certification from a non registered person/organisation. Not.

My mates a good diy'er. He's was fed up with his rewireable fuses blowing all the time so he changes his fuseboard and uprates the his protective devices.
Purchases his green cert (only for non approved contractors) and fills it out.
Cable meltdown follows and small fire strangely starts.

Catch my drift.
Yes I do catch your drift but, as we know your mate is a good diyer & he would be notifying the cu change with LBC before undertaking the work (as is required by part P), then LABC would be inpspecting FF & testing upon completion & certifying said cu change, insurance company is happy (same as if jibspark was to do this work).

Now if your diyer mate was to undertake some minor works that do not need LABC notification such as extend a circuit, & had a fire as a result then his insurance company maywell ask

"Who did the electrical work...you did great, are you a member of any electrical organisation such as niceic...no ok then, wheres the certs, oh they're nice green ones & you've filled them out, are you competent to do so?"

and the answer would have to be a no because your average diyer wouldnt know IR from Zs would they.

But if jibspark being a fully insured selfemployed weekend working sparky did this minor works & the fire still broke out the insurance company would possibly say

"are you a member of any electrical scheme... no ok then, where are the certs, oh they're nice green ones & you've filled them out, are you competent to do so?, right ok you have 2330 / NVQ3 work full time as a spark & you have 2381 & 2391, ok so it seems you are competent to undertake & test this kind work"

What I'm getting at is...just because who ever does the work isnt a member of an organisation doesnt mean they are not competent to do the work , or that an insurance company will not pay out (we all know they will try to squirm out of paying) because an individual or company are not in any electrical organisation.
What the insurance company will do is get one of their assessors (probably niceic registered) in to check over the work to assess if the work has been undertaken & fully complies with BS7671. If the work is ok & complies with 7671 the insurance company are stuffed. If it doesn't comply then the installer is on a sticky wicket & better have some good insurance.


And now I'm off to bed.
 
S

Submains

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
At the end of the day, to be a competent person you need to be assessed. Either by a self-certification scheme or by a registered organisation. Only then will you be deemed in you're competancy to inspect and test electrical installations.


"are you a member of any electrical scheme... no ok then, where are the certs, oh they're nice green ones & you've filled them out, are you competent to do so?, right ok you have 2330 / NVQ3 work full time as a spark & you have 2381 & 2391, ok so it seems you are competent to undertake & test this kind work"

Qualifications alone do not make a legally accepted competent person thats why we pay megabucks to have this title bestowed upon us.

Yes i agree. you do not have to be a member to be competent to undertake any electrical work as long as you're certs are signed by one. Hence part p which is statutory .
 
E

EasyFox

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
you do not have to be a member to be competent to undertake any electrical work as long as you're certs are signed by one. Hence part p which is statutory .
I think you are wrong.
Why can a non part P registered spark not do NON- notifiable minor works test the work & issue the required MWC.
And you are right any domestic electrical work needs to comply with part P which in turn means it has to comply with the BS7671 regs....Sooooooooooooooo do the regs state you have to be a scheme/operator member to test/inspect?
Take a look in the brown book the only sections where you find "competent person" in the regs are in part 7 (731-01-03 & 741-01-03 /04)
You DO need to be a member of a scheme/operator to self certify NOTIFIABLE domestic work (or register it before hand & pay the labc fee)


At the end of the day, to be a competent person you need to be assessed. Either by a self-certification scheme or by a registered organisation .
But where in the regs / EAWR or part P does it say this ?
I think you'll find in the part P doc it's some thing along the lines of;
Testing should be carried out by a suitably qualified person (or words to that effect)
"qualified" in this context means having the required QUALIFICATIONS, knowledge & experiance......blah blah (you'll have to read it for the rest.)
 
L

leoh187

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
Hi

I think Submains, you needs to take a look at the wiring regulations. To undertake electrical work (that isn't part P notifiable) you simply need to demonstrate you are "competent". How you do this can vary, its all about taking reasonable steps to ensure you are competent,similar to the HSE regualtions. Joining an organization is just a way of demonstrating that you are competent; but if you can show this by having qualifications, and experience then that is another way.

I hope this helps.

Many Thanks

Leo
 
S

Submains

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
I don't disagree with the undertaking of non notifiable or notifiable work or the competency of non registered sparks (i was myself for several years) but it's the issuing of the relevant certs which is what the post is all about.

To quote from the IEE Electricians Guide To The Building Regulations. Section 1.4.2 Minor Works.

Minor work must comply with BS 7671 including inspection and testing and the issue of a minor works certificate. As required by BS 7671, the certificate must be made out and signed by a competent person in respect of the inspection and testing of an installation. The competent person need not necessarily be a person registered with an electrical self-certification scheme and may be a third party. (ie NAPIT/NIC/ECA)

To quote from BS 7671 Section 741-01-04.

Electrical Installation Certificates, Periodic Inspection Reports and Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificates shall be compiled and signed or otherwise authenticated by a competent person or persons.

To quote from the Electricians Guide. Section 11.4 Certification. Para 3/4.

3. Undergoing an inspection of samples of their work ect.

4. On satisfying the requirements, they will become a registered member and a "competent person" so they can self-certify work.

Just phone up you're local authority building control services and ask the idiots that work there (when you finally find the right person to talk to) and tell them about you're quals and ask if it's ok to sign certs.
First thing they will ask you is are you registered to self certify followed by who are you registered with then?
This is what part P and certification is all about.
You become inspected and tested along with you're previous jobs, documentation, test instruments ect, and only then, if satisfactory, will the powers that be deem you worthy to be titled as "competent" and join their club.
 
T

TonyM58

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
Interesting discussion - although a few of you are are somewhat confused. No-one NEEDS 2391, its just a qualification and is NOT mentioned in the regs which only requires that that the inspector be competent. This has nothing to do with Part P, as all electrical work has to comply with BS7671 and should be inspected, tested and certified. part P doesnt require anyone to be qualified, certified or a memeber of a competent persons scheme. the competent persons scheme is justa means of electricians carrying out work without notifying building control.

I recently did some certificates for a mate who had changed his CU - he is not a qualified electrician (in the installation sense) - it was of no interest to me if he had applied to do the work through building control ( because I was not doing the work -just testing and inspecting)

i wrote out a generic PIR, Schedules of |Inspections and Test Results for the work. (tested with a fully calibrated Megger 1502)

The point is
He was not 'qualified' to do the work or a competent persons scheme member
I am not a competent persons scheme member or of any contractors association
The testing was compiled on non-headed certificates
NICEIC certificates have no-more legal standing than any other certificates (because NICEIC have no legal standing - they are just a charity)

The main point is tha twe are perfectly 'witihin the rules'!


Oh, by the way I have 2391, but that is largely irrelevant
 
C

Cirrus

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
well said TonyM58 and thanks for clarification. The 'part p qual' is a joke and only serves to make dodgy plumbers and kitchen fitters more accountable. For us true sparks it is a money grabbing exercise and one which we generally dislike. I am doing my 2391 this year as I have been testing my own installations until now but paying for someone to 'certify' officially for me. Trouble is, this can work out expensive when you are trying to be competitive. By gaining my 2391 I will then be able to join NAPIT or similar and although there is an initial outlay, it will save me money in time.
 
T

TonyM58

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
Cirrus,

Why are you paying someone to 'certify officially' for you. if you have been testing your own installations then presumably you have a meter and are competent to use it, and finally you test and certify i.a.w with BS7671 then your certificates are no more (or less) valid then anyone elses. Too many people are bullied into believing that certificates are only valid if they have NIC, Elecsa, NAPIT etc on the them.

2391 is good to have, but is not a requirment to write certificates ( i should know - I teach it!)
 
C

Cirrus

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
I test for my employer in a domestic situation 3 times a week under their NIC registration so yes, I consider myself competent to do so. I have been led to believe that if I do a private job for somebody that I am unable to issue a 'test' cert unless I am a member of a body such as NAPIT etc. Is this not the case?
 
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