Discuss The use of plastic wall plugs for the 18th.... in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Spoon

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Pete999

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I was just reading an interesting post about the 18th when the above was mentioned. there seems some debate about this. I initially thought that the idea of prohibiting the use of them was stupid, but I'm not sure now.

View attachment 43259

http://www.swaonline.co.uk/files/ww/Install Protect _ ComplyFull Document.pdf

These walldog screws look like they could strip the hole easily in some cases.
Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.
 

Strima

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Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.
I have to agree mate, looks like dodgy Bob down the pub will be making a few more quid as the rest of us are out priced...
 
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Spoon

Spoon

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Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.
Agree with you there mate.
 
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Spoon

Spoon

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So what's your opinion on the use of plastic wall plugs?
 

Dillb

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Just out of curiosity, donother trades such as ceiling fittiers, air con installers have to comply too as they both install things that are liable to fall down should the fixing fail in a fire?
 
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Nigel

Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.
Why would you install AFDDs in a domestic setting?
 

Pete999

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So what's your opinion on the use of plastic wall plugs?
Not sure Spoon, as I don't do much these days it's hardly an issue for me, although I will be asking the very question at ELEX in September at the Richo Stadium.
 
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Spoon

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Spoon

Spoon

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Not sure Spoon, as I don't do much these days it's hardly an issue for me, although I will be asking the very question at ELEX in September at the Richo Stadium.
Would like to hear what they say about it.
 
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Spoon

Spoon

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That is a really interesting read and it would appear plastic rawl plugs do not comply.

So I have changed my mind.
I was same as you mate, until I read the report about 3 hours ago..
 

Pete999

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That is a really interesting read and it would appear plastic rawl plugs do not comply.

So I have changed my mind.
Seems someone with such initial forthright views, has been able to change their minds (no offence meant) makes the issue all the more confusing, would like to hear what the scams have to say on the subject. without all the gobbledygook, just plain and simple for us Sparkles to understand, in black and white, not with shades of grey, and get out clauses, I suppose it's asking to much for a simple explanation.
 
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Spoon

Spoon

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Seems someone with such initial forthright views, has been able to change their minds (no offence meant) makes the issue all the more confusing, would like to hear what the scams have to say on the subject. without all the gobbledygook, just plain and simple for us Sparkles to understand, in black and white, not with shades of grey, and get out clauses, I suppose it's asking to much for a simple explanation.
Reading the report changed my view as well. I thought that plastic wall plugs would not be overly affected by a house fire, but it seems they are.
That's why I posted up the screen shot and the report for people to see. See what they think about it.
 

Wilko

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During Fire 1 the metal fold over clips secured by screws with a plastic plug were ok, if I read it correctly. And in the more intense Fire 2 they fell out due to plastic plug failure. The only question I have (so far :) ) - are the Testers saying my house will burn as per Fire 2? (based on?).
 

Midwest

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In a normal domestic property, I can't see this being an issue; unless the local council have spec'd a rewire of the property using surface plastic trunking.
 

johnduffell

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Agree plastic plugs are as useful as a chocolate teapot in a fire, but domestic work would not suffer as plasterboard is adequate when they are run above the ceiling.
There was a debate about cables fixed to walls whether they are ok, whether they are fine because the forces are not pulling the screw out.
 

ipf

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Agree plastic plugs are as useful as a chocolate teapot in a fire, but domestic work would not suffer as plasterboard is adequate when they are run above the ceiling.
There was a debate about cables fixed to walls whether they are ok, whether they are fine because the forces are not pulling the screw out.
Good point John. Fixing to concrete ceilings, without suspended, is vastly different to walls. However, the number of thousands of pyro clips I've fixed to boiler house ceilings or in blocks of flats, for that matter, using plastic plugs and black japs or brass screws, must have some bearing.
I feel it's going way over the top, to tell the truth.
 

johnduffell

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I feel it's going way over the top, to tell the truth.
Fair enough, but that's exactly why we have scientific process. It allows us to prove what will happen rather than just use intuition. If you know about cognitive bias (look it up) there are a lot of things which are obvious but not actually true.
I'd be happy to debate how proportional it is, maybe that's what you're getting at, and maybe we value firefighters lives too highly according to some opinions (how many millions will the new reg cost? Compare with other things we can do with that money to save lives?)
 

ipf

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Fair enough, but that's exactly why we have scientific process. It allows us to prove what will happen rather than just use intuition. If you know about cognitive bias (look it up) there are a lot of things which are obvious but not actually true.
I'd be happy to debate how proportional it is, maybe that's what you're getting at, and maybe we value firefighters lives too highly according to some opinions (how many millions will the new reg cost? Compare with other things we can do with that money to save lives?)
Is it one method of coming to a conclusion or making a decision......like throwing pros and cons in pc and seeing what the results bring?....a method of reasoning with statistics , maybe.
 
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But they have done tests on this. See the links in the original post and post #12.
 

johnduffell

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Is it one method of coming to a conclusion or making a decision......like throwing pros and cons in pc and seeing what the results bring?....a method of reasoning with statistics , maybe.
No it's simply working out the question (do plastic plugs fail in a normal house fire before the fire brigade would have done their bit) then making a repeatable process to check what the answer is based on knowing time periods and temperatures and building materials used. That's been done now.
Then there's all the questions about how much would it cost to implement and whether there are other things we could do costing less and having bigger benefits. And also comparing the cost to implement with the notional value of the lives it saves. We value lives very highly in the UK, so things can often seem to be overkill.
 

Wilko

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Does anyone know how Fire1 and Fire2 were temps and durations were picked? Are they part of an accredited test programme based on observations of actual fires etc?
I agree that anything plastic is unlikely to provide much mechanical support when exposed to 400C :).
 

telectrix

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so let's all go back to fibre plugs. or can we get some made from asbestos?
 

davesparks

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I think it’s worth noting that for containment such as steel conduit and trunking it is normally not just fixed to the ceiling but passes over/through walls and drops down walls to sockets etc. This in itself will often be enough to hold the whole lot up once the rawlplugs in the ceiling have failed.
 
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netblindpaul

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Just out of curiosity, donother trades such as ceiling fittiers, air con installers have to comply too as they both install things that are liable to fall down should the fixing fail in a fire?
Yes they must also comply when installing their wiring, and the guidance will suggest that this is one of those regulations that will, be retrospective.
 

Dillb

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Yes they must also comply when installing their wiring, and the guidance will suggest that this is one of those regulations that will, be retrospective.
Sorry should of been a bit more specific, in that they must use fixings that wont allow ceilings and air con pipes and units to fall?
 

netblindpaul

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It's not ceilings and Air-Con pipework that collapsed and entangled a in a fire fighters resulting in him dying entangled in wiring outside the door of a flat which was on fire.
His body was found with melted plastic on his gloves, so can you imagine what went through that poor mans mind as he lay there dying when he went in to save peoples lives?
He ran out of air so suffocated as well as the "injury" due to the fire.
A horrendous scenario that must never be allowed to happen again.
However, do not let the scare mongers start publishing things that are not in accordance with official guidance.
The IET are not allowed to provide guidance on the requirements of BS 7671 it is prohibited by BS 0.
 

Dillb

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I agree, but my point is that there are other people work that could also lead to unecessary deaths im a similar fashion, yet as usual its a case of waiting for it too happen before trying to prevent it happening again.
 

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Firefighters now do have wirecutters attached to the BA sets and entanglement training given here in suffolk, so they did alter stuff that end aswell.... nice cutters too :) i left a couple of years ago now though but ended up cutting through the cord that attached them to the set a few times:D
 

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