Discuss TT system in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Evening gentlemen,
TT System, previous spark fitted new metal CU. I’ve got an outbuilding to wire, it’s fed by a 10mm swa.
I’m going to be putting in a time delayed 100ma RCD before the main CU. The swa feed to the outbuilding cu will be fed via a switched fuse. My question is, do I split the supply to the main CU ANDswitched fuse after the new RCD, or take the feed to switch fuse before rcd. Then fit another time delayed rcd near to the new CU. Had 2 different answers from 2 different sparks.
 
Basically what has already been said:
  1. You need to get someone qualified to do this
  2. As it is TT you must have an RCD at the origin of the system. If fed from SWA that means there must be an RCD before the run of SWA cable irrespective of what the CU at the end of it has.
Now you might have various reasons for how you split it. Generally having two RCD gives you a good degree of independence (but with slightly higher cost), but you could split it after the existing RCD. You will also need over-current protection (as it seems pretty certain it is more than 3m) and for that a fused-switch will almost certainly give you greater selectivity than trying to take it from an existing board's MCB.
 
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Hi - depending on the size of the installation a second S type RCD may be worth it as a reliability improvement, but one can be sufficient depending upon the installation’s design.
 
Considering you are going to put a new circuit to a out building it will come under the local building control and would get a spark in to design and test the system.
I’m not putting a new circuit to the outbuilding. It’s already in situ. The only modifications I’ll be doing is adding the rcd, and switched fuse. Then the new cu . Somebody else is testing and signing off.
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Basically what has already been said:
  1. You need to get someone qualified to do this
  2. As it is TT you must have an RCD at the origin of the system. If fed from SWA that means there must be an RCD before the run of SWA cable irrespective of what the CU at the end of it has.
Now you might have various reasons for how you split it. Generally having two RCD gives you a good degree of independence (but with slightly higher cost), but you could split it after the existing RCD. You will also need over-current protection (as it seems pretty certain it is more than 3m) and for that a fused-switch will almost certainly give you greater selectivity than trying to take it from an existing board's MCB.
The swa is approx 12m, already installed. I had it in mind , based on past experiences and the BBB, that the rcd had to be first, then split. The previous spark has put a new CU board in, then fed the swa off a 40A mcb. I would love to see his test results, as the clamp to the rod lifted off by hand, it’s corroded, and definitely needs a new rod, and re-terminating.
 
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TT System, previous spark fitted new metal CU. I’ve got an outbuilding to wire, it’s fed by a 10mm swa.
I’m going to be putting in a time delayed 100ma RCD before the main CU
so the first spark did not do it then by putting in a up front rcd, and you are putting in a up front rcd

going to be putting in a time delayed 100ma RCD before the main
so what will you be doing then regarding the work This post does not make sense.
 
Well firstly you need to sort out the earth rod. If the rod itself is corroded significantly (presumably a copper-clad steel one that has lost its plating?) then it should be replaced. If the soil is corrosive (e.g. quite acidic) you might need to look at a solid copper rod (more expensive) or a stainless one for acceptably long life. For good all-year behaviour you want it deep, so if you can (and have checked there is nothing at risk) then driving in a 2.4m or so rod is better than two 1.2m ones in parallel, etc.

As a TT system it must have an RCD first, before any thing like a fused-switch, SWA cable, etc, that could possibly result in a fault to earth. That could be in the main CU is you have taken sufficient care that the tails are protected against damage against the metal box or external forces that could move them inside. Which you should anyway!

What is in the exiting CU?

Depending on the outbuilding needs, it might be that taking it from a MCB in the main CU is OK. True you won't get as great an independence of fault handling, and it is hard to get good selectivity with two MCB in series, but it may be acceptable. If going down that route see if you can get away with a 40A D-curve MCB feeding the SWA so the instantaneous magnetic trip at the source has as high a fault current as practical.

If you do want independent operation of the two CU then as you suggest you could split the tails and put in a RCD then fused-switch for the outbuilding SWA feed. The main CU needs an up-front RCD as well, but that could be a replacement for its main switch if available.

Any pictures for us to pontificate over?
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I had it in mind , based on past experiences and the BBB, that the rcd had to be first, then split.
The RCD must be before anything that could reasonably have a fault mode to earth.

If you have the tails split with a pair of Henley blocks on a non-conductive panel such as plywood, etc, with the various cables pinned on it for mechanical support that is not likely. Then you can have your two 100mA S-type RCD if you want independence of operation.

However if you are looking at both down-stream CU with all-RCD protection based on instant 30mA RCD/RCBO then you should not see the main RCD trip outside of a major fault (SWA cable damage, downstream RCD failed to operate on significant fault, etc) or a lot of leaky loads over several circuts adding up to more then 50mA or so. In that case you could have a single main RCD and split after it for the two CU.

Other folk on this forum have also pointed out that the old plastic CU were better for TT installation in the sense of less risk of an earth fault! But obviously no longer acceptable due to the lack of fire containment.

On the positive side, the new metal CU and fire aspect has brought in the three-hole cable glands as a seal for the tails entering, and they are much better generally then a grommet as they also provide come cable movement control. I'm also guessing the more flexible 19-strand tails would be better as well as less likely to apply forces to the inside of the CU, and obviously good practice to clip the tails in place outside of the CU unless it is a very short run to the meter.
 
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I think it is important to point out here that a number of posts state that a TT system must be entirely protected by an RCD. For the sake of correctness this is not right and is not a requirement of Bs7671. In practice it is likely to be required because the Ra of an earth electrode will most likely exceed that required for the operation of an overcurrent device. Bs 7671 states that an RCD is the preferred means of earth fault protection, but does not state it is a requirement. In the unlikely event of an Ra being low enough and stable enough to meet the disconnection time for an OCPD then an OCPD would meet the requirements.
 
PC1966 could you draw a diagram on here to show the op how is done.
Here is an attempt to make my test a bit clearer. Let me know if you spot anything wrong!
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In the unlikely event of an Ra being low enough and stable enough to meet the disconnection time for an OCPD then an OCPD would meet the requirements.
Yes you are right an RCD is not a requirement as such, but for a 40A circuit you would need an earth rod impedance of an ohm or less, and that is very unlikely to be met at any sane cost (unless you already have a massive deep steel structure in good connection with the earth).
 

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Thank you for all your advice and solutions.
The rod is to be replaced, at he moment it’s just sat in a pile of soil about 15” high. Apparently been like this for over 5 years! So 1st job obviously.
Having talked to original spark, his work was meant to be a temporary solution, to be upgraded within 6 months. That was 2 years ago. But surely it should of been done right, even if temporary.
Luckily there is a DNO isolator so I’ll add rcd, then Henley block, then split to 1) switched fuse, and 2)cu.
SWA to outbuilding from switched fuse, with terminating in standard (metal)split cu. Then it’s over to someone else to complete and certify. I’ll test etc my work, then other DI can carry on with his work.

Ps I’m perfectly competent to do this. I was a spark back in the 15th Ed days, done my 18th this year, and now following 20years driving trucks, getting back into this wonderful business. Obviously a bit of a problem at the moment. But confident things will work out.

Stay safe boys n girls
 
Yes you are right an RCD is not a requirement as such, but for a 40A circuit you would need an earth rod impedance of an ohm or less, and that is very unlikely to be met at any sane cost (unless you already have a massive deep steel structure in good connection with the earth).
Absolutely agreed, but while it may seem pedantic I always feel this is how 'phantom' regulations and mythology creep into our trade.
When I did the 18th the tutor went through changes from the 17th, and stated it is now a requirement that all circuits in domestic installations are RCD protected.
No it is NOT a requirement! In practice it is likely that it will be....but there are plenty of installations where some circuits will not require RCD protection. I had to correct him, before another myth does the rounds and becomes a phantom reg.
 
Most of us are guilty of simplifying things and risking 'phantom regulations' creeping in instead of of the more correct statement that gives the various alternatives to X and rules them out on practical grounds leaving only X as practical, and then it becomes "X is the law" in folk's minds which it is not.

RCDs are the perfect example as they solve a number of problems so are often used, but are not the only way to achieve a safe and reliable system and sometimes there are better choices.
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Out of curiosity I ran some calculations for earth rod impedance assuming 2.4m deep rods of 16mm diameter, spaced 3m apart in a line in soil of typical 150 Ohm.m resistivity. To get 1 ohm you would need 31 rods!
 
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Most of us are guilty of simplifying things and risking 'phantom regulations' creeping in instead of of the more correct statement that gives the various alternatives to X and rules them out on practical grounds leaving only X as practical, and then it becomes "X is the law" in folk's minds which it is not.

RCDs are the perfect example as they solve a number of problems so are often used, but are not the only way to achieve a safe and reliable system and sometimes there are better choices.
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Out of curiosity I ran some calculations for earth rod impedance assuming 2.4m deep rods of 16mm diameter, spaced 3m apart in a line in soil of typical 150 Ohm.m resistivity. To get 1 ohm you would need 31 rods!
Don't know whether you recall Engineer54, a much esteemed stalwart on here some years back, Eng always insisted that Ra values of one ohm or less were achievable and anything around the standard UK accepted readings was unacceptable. I begged to differ, but seemingly Ra values in the UK are plucked out of thin air rather than based on sound engineering.
 
No, I only discovered this forum a month or two ago!

I certainly would not agree with that view. As far as I can see getting 1 ohm or less is very difficult, maybe if you are building a substation and putting in something like a 10m x 10m buried copper grid in an area of reasonably good soil conductivity you can do it, but I would be very happy and impressed to see anything under 10 ohms!
 
BT have started using conductive concrete on their street cabinets and I often seen sub 1 ohm when testing. Expensive stuff but gives very low and stable results.
Interesting tip, I had no idea it was that conductive!

Are you sure they have not just concreted round a buried cable's lead sheath? :tearsofjoy:
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Found this article on conductive concrete earthing. Interesting but it would still appear that getting 1 ohm or less is hard at reasonable physical size unless you have mist and very good soil conductivity.

 
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The key with a TT earthing arrangement is stability, Never mind your 2 figure Ra which IMO is virtually impossible , I would be more than happy with a 200ohm Ra which is stable, it can take a very long time for the earth electrode to establish within its conditions, type of soil etc.
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RIP Eng54, he was a much favoured member to this forum.!!
 
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